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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Bauhausler said:
You beat me to it. I've been trolling for a pair of partial DQ10s to ewave ever since I noticed how nice and high on the cab the woofer sits.
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Don't know if you've been following my acoustic suspension woofer comparisons, but these and the Large Advents have every bit of the AR3a's low frequency extension, and the DQ-10's fiberglass better damps them.

As you can see, they are not symmetrical, and the pair I have are not mirror-imaged. I gotta wonder if they were mirrored on mirror-imaged pairs, if such a thing existed. I see members mirror-imaging them, but what are they doing about the woofers? I'll look to determine, but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the subchambers inside are asymmetrical as well.... :dunno:

Edit: Not mirrored, apparently:

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http://www.syer.net/dahlquist.htm

They'd have to be rebuilt, or rather, one would....
 

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Zilch said:
Don't know if you've been following my acoustic suspension woofer comparisons, but these and the Large Advents have every bit of the AR3a's low frequency extension, and the DQ-10's fiberglass better damps them.

As you can see, they are not symmetrical, and the pair I have are not mirror-imaged. I gotta wonder if they were mirrored on mirror-imaged pairs, if such a thing existed. I see members mirror-imaging them, but what are they doing about the woofers? I'll look to determine, but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the subchambers inside are asymmetrical as well.... :dunno:
Click to expand...

I've followed the woofer comparisons with interest and need to go back and make sure I've absorbed it all. Having tried both foam and fiberglass, fiberglass makes a very audible difference in loading the Advent cabs.
I recently bought a pair of DQ10 woofers and *carefully* restored them for my friend's DQ20is. This made a big difference over the generically refoamed originals.
My one preference for the ARs over the Advents is structure. The ARs weigh at least 50% more and it's all in the woodwork. They are stout, tight and rigid. When I work on an Advent cab I always feel that a little bracing - or a lot - might produce an audible improvement. Unfortunately the AR woofer doesn't have the upper end range of the Advent and the AR baffle doesn't have space for a waveguide anyway. Hence the 3-way 4-box pair I'm working on.
I expect the DQ10 cabinet is superior to the Advent in structure.
I contemplated the JBL 6" X 6" WG with a midwoofer and Advent woofer in Advent cabs. It would fit with a new baffle but the midwoofer back enclosure would cost volume from the cabinet and the result would still be a cabinet with less than optimum rigidity.
I'll be working o na passive LP for the B110 midwoofers to mate with the JBL top end, but first I have some editing to finish on deadline...
 
jackgiff said:
Thanks for the good words about the threaded inserts I will be using in my next project. I bought the slotted types shown In the McMaster-Carr kink, although they look to have deeper external threads than the ones shown in the McM-C illustrations. They should hold OK, but this is the first time I have tried them, so I will be careful with them till they prove their worth. I need to get a proper drill bit to use them, so they will be mounted tomorrow. Seems like everything is tomorrow around here.

And thanks for the link to McMaster-Carr. I never thought about looking in their catalog. Cheaper than my local True Value, as well.
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McMaster-Carr online is an addiction. (Like we all need another!)

I used the brass #6 slotted types to mount the standoffs for the XO-PCB's. For larger sizes I use the zinc socket-head drives.

I found them very difficult to drive in straight using only a slotted screwdriver. The (expensive) special tool is somewhat better, but I stripped the drive tangs off of mine in less than 12 (#6) inserts. I found a better and cheaper tool was to thread in an appropriate sized socket head type screw (Allen, Torx, etc) and used the longest handled driver I had so I could get them started in straight. Also, make sure you drill the specified pilot hole. To small a pilot hole was maybe the cause of my stripped drive tool.



Bauhausler said:
...Sacred cows make the tastiest burgers...
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:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I'm gonna use that line!
 
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My wife is a machine designer so I get McMaster's Big Yellow Book, the 3800 page catalog. These used to be so scarce people chained them to their desks.

Regarding the threaded inserts, yeah they're a pain to drive into wood. You can run a tap through to create threads for easier driving. Taps are expensive, but a worn one will do for wood. I get them at second hand stores cheap. Wood glue on the threads will make sure the insert holds in the absence of a tight interference fit.

Dahlquist: I'm not surprised that they didn't re-engineer the woofer cabinet and produce left and right versions. For their purposes the position of the woofer is not critical. The rest of the drivers can be mirror imaged by rearranging them and drilling new mounting holes and that's what many owners of non-mirrored DQ10s did.
 
Robh3606 said:
DQ-10's :yikes:

Rob:nono:
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Heh, heh.

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They'd be pretty impressive with a B460 sittin' between a pair.

[We can only get away with this stuff in this thread.... :tongue: ]


Edit: Detail:

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That looks good Zilch!
I am now firmly in the rolled off LF camp now...too much low end from the monitors is less flexible.

Are you playing with QSC guide acoustic center front to back? Where are you running it here, and generally?

Have I called you a nut-job recently?

Zilch said:
Heh, heh.

attachment.php

They'd be pretty impressive with a B460 sittin' between a pair.

[We can only get away with this stuff in this thread.... :tongue: ]
Click to expand...
 
Bauhausler said:
Crossover details???
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eWave tweaked, but just to make it happen, i.e., not optimized: C1 = 15 uF, R1 = 30 Ohms, R2 = 10 Ohms, C3 = 0.47 uF, and an additional -4 dB in front of the driver, S = 3.5 Ohms, P = 24 Ohms so the adjustable L-pad sits in the middle. If I got serious about it, I'd do a better job. Thinking about making a little breadboard to facilitate optimizing the eWave crossover for various driver combinations.

skywave-rider said:
Are you playing with QSC guide acoustic center front to back? Where are you running it here, and generally?
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Nah, none of that. It's just hanging over the edge where it sits vertical with some 1/2" foam under the driver. The minimum phase is nearly as flat as the frequency response. I'll update the curve to show that next time I measure, and get the acoustic crossover frequency, as well.

skywave-rider said:
Have I called you a nut-job recently?
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A most appropriate appellation.... ;)
 
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Zilch said:
HUH?

They're not DONE already? ;)

:banana:
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The first xover was done early enough to take some quick measurements, prove I had wired it right, and listen a little. I finished the second one just in time for beddie-bye.

They're playing now, on top of a pair of Pioneer B20FU20-51W full-ranger drivers in half-Chang cabinets (http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Half-Chang-map-170608.pdf). The stock LP works well on the Pioneers, and the e-wave is flatter, more extended and much more dynamic than the little dome that's been assisting the Pio at the top end. My, what a surprise!

Overall the sound is quite good. Some concert brass band music revealed a little harshness on top (HOM's, anyone?). Some of that may be the bug screen. When I can find some foam, I'll try that and remove the screen. Gotta get a brick of duct seal and damp the horn, too. For now it's not screwed down to anything, and in that state it rings a bit. Grabbing the edge damps the ringing, an dI assume mounting into a baffle will do the same.

I bought pairs of both the 6x6 and 12x6 WG's. The bigger WG sounds significantly better to my ears, and measures flatter too. I'll have to go back and confirm that, though. And that's without either one in a baffle, so there may be other things going on there.

Pics will follow. Longer term, I have a pair of P. Audio 12" woofers on back order. Claimed 97 dB sensitive, should be an interesting combination. Won't have those until October, though, and travel plans will probably mean cabinets will be pushed into November.

Bill
 
They will smooth out after a couple nights of listening. Both pair I built the L-pad started out at about 11:00. Did you say they were playing with full range
drivers?
 
badmusician said:
The first xover was done early enough to take some quick measurements, prove I had wired it right, and listen a little. I finished the second one just in time for beddie-bye.

They're playing now, on top of a pair of Pioneer B20FU20-51W full-ranger drivers in half-Chang cabinets (http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Half-Chang-map-170608.pdf). The stock LP works well on the Pioneers, and the e-wave is flatter, more extended and much more dynamic than the little dome that's been assisting the Pio at the top end. My, what a surprise!

Overall the sound is quite good. Some concert brass band music revealed a little harshness on top (HOM's, anyone?). Some of that may be the bug screen. When I can find some foam, I'll try that and remove the screen. Gotta get a brick of duct seal and damp the horn, too. For now it's not screwed down to anything, and in that state it rings a bit. Grabbing the edge damps the ringing, an dI assume mounting into a baffle will do the same.

I bought pairs of both the 6x6 and 12x6 WG's. The bigger WG sounds significantly better to my ears, and measures flatter too. I'll have to go back and confirm that, though. And that's without either one in a baffle, so there may be other things going on there.

Pics will follow. Longer term, I have a pair of P. Audio 12" woofers on back order. Claimed 97 dB sensitive, should be an interesting combination. Won't have those until October, though, and travel plans will probably mean cabinets will be pushed into November.

Bill
Click to expand...

Like HatchetJack, I found they smoothed out with a little play time under the belt. Pay particular attention to phasing of all hookups. Are you using 210 or 220 ti?

Russellc
 
Here's the JBL 123A-1 in the PE KDT cabinet used as a bass bin, with QSC and DE250 on top. The box is empty, I am gonna stuff it and hope that helps the boom. (1 meter on tweeter axis.)

Crossover still 4Pi, waveguide moved forward 1.5". Forward axis was pointing up. First fiberglass, then Econowave X-O.

PS: I drilled pilot holes for the woofer straight through and out the front of the baffle. I actually screwed-up building a wood kit-box.:tears:
 

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skywave-rider said:
Here's the JBL 123A-1 in the PE KDT cabinet used as a bass bin, with QSC and DE250 on top. The box is empty, I am gonna stuff it and hope that helps the boom. (1 meter on tweeter axis.)

Crossover still 4Pi, waveguide moved forward 1.5". Forward axis was pointing up. First fiberglass, then Econowave X-O.
Click to expand...
Heh, L100 boom. ;)

There's also about 4 dB too much HF comp, hence the sag between 1 - 10 kHz. Try reducing R1 to raise and flatten it, like adding 25 - 30 Ohms in parallel with the existing.

The 4-Pi highpass is 3rd order; your phase alignment may also shift some when you switch to the 2nd order eWave crossover. It'll be interesting to see how much.... :yes:
 
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