Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Russellc]

For sure a great performer, but the scarcity makes the price of admission hardly qualify as econo? I have multiple pairs of LE14A's that I have paid less than $75 for including shipping. They needed to be refoamed (about $15 a pair materials plus about 4 hours of my labor) and they are no 2235 but they are easily 1/4 to 1/3 the cost and still solid performers in their own right.:scratch2:

Its econo compared to a 4430 monitor. 2225H cores can be had cheap, but the recone is about 400 at a JBL service center. Not as cheap as LE14A is, but it is essentially a brand new speaker, something a refoamed LE14a isnt.

As an example, I paid 300 for a pair of 4647/4507 boxes loaded with 2225H
drivers. Recone to 2235H, 400. E'wave set up, at time 175. Total 875. It rocked seriously with the 2225H drivers, then it was only 475. (a pair ) Seriously Econo when the level of performance was considered. The additional 400 for recone to 2235H was extravegent, but the level of performance is astounding. They were just fine with the 2225H.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Other than e-bay, what are some other sources for JBL 2235H's???

Thanks

I dont think JBL has discontinued officially yet have they?

Russellc

 

[ROSSO]

Several JBL frames will take the C8R2235 kit to become 2235H or 2234H.
2225s are an exact match to the 2235 frame, while 2205 will sound the same with it's Alnico frame. E-130/140 frames will also work, but the stronger magnet will boost the mids a bit, so this has been called a Frankenspeaker...

At one time there were also aftermarket kits on that auction site, but, while the cone and coil were top notch, the spider was too stiff and it did not come with a mass ring, so Fs would never match. That's what my current pair are, 2205 frames with AM kits. Sound almost as good as my real one after I added enough mass to get the Fs where I wanted. (It would only go as low as a real 2235H without the mass ring, so technically it sounds like an inefficient 2234.) Not quite the same as my real one, nor do the 2205 frames allow the power handling of the SFG frames.

For my next pair I have 2225's and the real JBL kits in a closet, just waiting till I finish the cabinets. I'll probably have to re-foam them before I get around to using them...

All true, but when you start swapping cones amongst frames then you get into that gray area of whether or not you REALLY have a 2235 - a discussion that has been beat to death in numerous other threads. I'm just saying that genuine 2235H's are fairly rare, very desirable and thus bring a premium on the open market. LE14A's are extremely common, have the well known petrified Lans-a-loy Achilles heel that lots of folks would prefer not to deal with and thus are often available at prices that belie their performance.

I dont think JBL has discontinued officially yet have they?

Russellc

Current JBL Pro drivers:

http://www.jblpro.com/components/index.html

Vented Gap Cooled (VGC™) Low Frequency Transducers

2206H: 300 mm (12 in)
2226H/J: 380 mm (15 in)
2241H: 460 mm (18 in)
Super Vented Gap (SVG™) Low Frequency Transducers

2242H: 460 mm (18 in)

 

[Zilch]

I dont think JBL has discontinued officially yet have they?

2235H is no longer on the transducer list, but 2234H is, at $531 apiece MSRP....

I'm thinking that I might be better served with smaller woofers to pair to the Econowaves. Does anyone have any suggestions? New or used woofers. I can build boxes too. Or whole speakers that I should keep an eye out for.

Several of us have built "compact" eWaves using the smaller 6" and 8" square JBL waveguides as well as 18-Sound and Dayton ellipticals. These JBL products illustrate the concept of eWaving using small woofers:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC16-WH.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC1895-WH.pdf

Yes, 5.25" ones, even:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC15-WH.pdf

There is plenty of territory for eWavers to explore.... :thmbsp:

 

[Russellc]

All true, but when you start swapping cones amongst frames then you get into that gray area of whether or not you REALLY have a 2235 - a discussion that has been beat to death in numerous other threads. I'm just saying that genuine 2235H's are fairly rare, very desirable and thus bring a premium on the open market.

Make NO mistake, when done with a 2225H, You have a 2235H, not maybe, not close, but a sure enough 2235H. Some of the others are "frankenspeaker" creations, but not so with the 2225H. You will have 2235H. While a refoamed LE14A is inexpensive, the voice coil, cone and most importantly the spider are old and NOT in original shape. For the money, its been one of the premeir choices here. Just doesnt do what a 2235H, or 2225H reconed to 2235H can do. Otherwise, I wouldnt have wasted my time.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

All true, but when you start swapping cones amongst frames then you get into that gray area of whether or not you REALLY have a 2235 - a discussion that has been beat to death in numerous other threads. I'm just saying that genuine 2235H's are fairly rare, very desirable and thus bring a premium on the open market. LE14A's are extremely common, have the well known petrified Lans-a-loy Achilles heel that lots of folks would prefer not to deal with and thus are often available at prices that belie their performance.

Current JBL Pro drivers:

http://www.jblpro.com/components/index.html

Vented Gap Cooled (VGC™) Low Frequency Transducers

2206H: 300 mm (12 in)
2226H/J: 380 mm (15 in)
2241H: 460 mm (18 in)
Super Vented Gap (SVG™) Low Frequency Transducers

2242H: 460 mm (18 in)

This is current availablility, not whether or not officially discontinued. Same for certain recones, periodically some are made. This will become less and less frequent. This is based on a member over on LH forum that a while back obtained 2235H, new, from JBL. I believe this was late 08 or early 09.

Now that Harmon seems to be turning their back on these classics, ( and some new drivers are only repairable via direct replacement) this will come to an end. They are beginning to be more and more aftermarkets claiming to be close to originals, but I'll have to see it to be convinced. So far, I havent heard of anyone yet unable to come up with 2235H recones through JBL repair places, but the day is coming. this has been hashed and rehashed over on LH forums. Sad, but true. I have another pair of 2225H that are in great shape, ( unlike 2235h with foam surrounds, they have the pleated type surround) which I am not sure what to do with....convert, or keep as is. I really like the 2225H, really has realistic snap and punch, just not the house shaking ability of the 2235H.

Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

L/R4 Xover compatibility

I tried the L/R4 Xover with the Dayton DC300 12 inch woofer from a previous test, and also with a JBL 2214H 12 incher. Both woofers worked great with the L/R Xover. Even better, both woofers had their vertical nulls in essentially the identical places as the B&C woofers.

The Dayton DC300 (first picture) didn't do bass so well, since the cabinet was tuned to 50 HZ for the B&C woofer. Also it needed some Zobel to flatten it's response.

The JBL 2214H (second picture) was also hampered by the 50 Hz tuning of the cabinet. JBL used just a resistor across the 2214, and it certainly flattened out the response in another project of mine.

Then some time was spent trying to flatten out the response of the B&C DE250. The attenuation resistor is right at the input of the Hi pass, so no R2 is needed. A 30 Ohm resistor and .47 uf cap was initially used, but there was a slight rise in the upper end. The cap was changed to a .22 uf, which leveled out the response. The overshoot at about 2 KHz was deadened with a .7 mH inductor and a 7.5 Ohm resistor. Now the response overall is roughly +/- 1 dB for the HF up to the 16 KHz dropoff as seen in the lone FR.

The smallest .7 mh inductor from PE has a resistance of .57 Ohms. It seems it could be at least ten times that without affecting the circuit operation, so I will do some research for either a commercially available inductor, or an easy way to wind your own. The 20 Ga part from PE is huge and seems to be overkill.

A little more work is due to solve the woofer response, but the Xover is looking quite nice. I really am not enamored with the QSC horn, though. It is BIG, which causes problems that don't really seem necessary.

 

[Russellc]

At one time there were also aftermarket kits on that auction site, but, while the cone and coil were top notch, the spider was too stiff and it did not come with a mass ring, so Fs would never match.

Ok I guess if rebuilding an existing 2235H, you could swipe the mass ring off the old one. Wouldnt help much about the too stiff spider. Hopefully someone will provide aftermarket classic recone kits when JBL does stop, that will equal the originals. Sort of like Bill over at GreatPlanes Audio did with the Altec stuff.

Russellc

 

[DENNYDOG]

What was the real reason for using the QSC horn over the Pyle or JBL? Other than those being the screw on style. It's been shown that it would be easy enough to modify to a bolt on style.

 

[skywave-rider]

I'm thinking that I might be better served with smaller woofers to pair to the Econowaves. Does anyone have any suggestions? New or used woofers. I can build boxes too. Or whole speakers that I should keep an eye out for.....

I know, I know, same boxes, but different load of drivers. I like these so much I will eventually build a new box and orient the woofer and 6x6 waveguide to be closer to one another for better center to center distance.

This worked well with the Dayton Classic 8" and now I have old JBL LE8THs in there. Selenium D220 Tis on the JBL 6x6.

 

[skywave-rider]

... the Xover is looking quite nice. ....

Looking good, Jack.

 

[MartinV56]

Econwaveguide really is excellent, the option of using vintage speakers like JBL, EV, Altec, etc. is very good alternative (ebay) but IMHO would be more attractive to use existing woofers as selenium, Dayton, Eminence, Beyma, B & C, etc. What you say?,Thanks

 

[jackgiff]

What was the real reason for using the QSC horn over the Pyle or JBL? Other than those being the screw on style. It's been shown that it would be easy enough to modify to a bolt on style.

There was an awful lot of interest in the QSC horn, with many DIY'ers doing projects with it. Plus, because it is a bolt on style, it had much to offer over JBL's $100 bolt on equivalent to the EconoWave waveguide. A savings of around $90 each is noticeable.

The B&C DE250 was also being talked about and built with, and had a diaphragm which should have sounded smoother then the Titanium diaphragms used in the Seleniums. I cannot fault the DE250. It is a very nice sounding driver. But the Seleniums go to 20 KHz, and cost a lot less, at the expense of being a bit more "in your face." I want to do some experimentation to see if the "metal sound" of the Titanium can be tamed. And BMS drivers with mylar diaphragms sound smoother, and also go to 20 KHz at about the same price as the B&C.

 

[1scienceguy]

What would be nice for those of us that have just enough knowledge to be dangerous is a list of woofers that fall into the category of economy, mid, and high budget that would work very well in the Econo Wave set-up. Thoughts?

 

[1scienceguy]

Econwaveguide really is excellent, the option of using vintage speakers like JBL, EV, Altec, etc. is very good alternative (ebay) but IMHO would be more attractive to use existing woofers as selenium, Dayton, Eminence, Beyma, B & C, etc. What you say?,Thanks

This is exactly the kind of information that us novices are looking for. Thank you for expressing what I was trying to think. LOL Please, someone with lots of knowledge in this area, help us! Thanks in advance.

 

[MWalt]

What would be nice for those of us that have just enough knowledge to be dangerous is a list of woofers that fall into the category of economy, mid, and high budget that would work very well in the Econo Wave set-up. Thoughts?

I am paying close attention here. My next DIY will be a "non-econo" waveguide. I want my next effort to have beautiful cabinets and a modern woofer to go with the Selenium driver and Pyle waveguide. I think Zilch mentioned a setup with an SEAS woofer similar to the one in the Dynaco A-25. The Dynaco A-25 is one of my all time favs, so that has peaked my curiosity. I am watching to see what new information about it that Zilch puts out.

 

[Zilch]

What was the real reason for using the QSC horn over the Pyle or JBL? Other than those being the screw on style. It's been shown that it would be easy enough to modify to a bolt on style.

Aside from the bolt-on mounting, compatible with higher-quality drivers (throat adapters being not so "transparent" as presumed), the rounded-over mouth termination, an essential feature according to Geddes, the sharp edge transition of the JBL/Pyle being in theory, at least, a source of diffraction from the discontinuity.

It's the QSC's roundover which comprises the difference in overall size between the waveguides; deducting that, the actual flares are similar, and a comparison of Geddes's performance data for the JBL versus Brandon's measurements of the QSC reveals they are remarkably similar, with the JBL having a bit of an edge with respect to pattern control. It may be argued that JBL achieves that small advantage, if it is even said to be one, via diffraction, whereas the QSC is a more "pure" waveguide.

In theory, then, the QSC should be the better performer in terms of sonic quality. As Jack mentioned, using a different compression driver introduces another variable, several, in fact, and any comparison is not apples/apples. Fortunately, the Selenium D220Ti is available in both thread-on and bolt-on variants which will ultimately permit reasonable conclusions to be drawn as to the differences between the JBL/Pyle and QSC waveguides in actual listening evaluations.... :thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

Please, someone with lots of knowledge in this area, help us! Thanks in advance.

We don't know, is the answer. With well over 100 systems now built, certain woofers have emerged as "favorites," most likely more by default than actual performance. Brandon recently built with Eminence (Dc270 did early on as well, as I recall,) and Jack is trying a B&C. There are literally hundreds of options; we have primarily focused on what we had at hand or could easily and inexpensively acquire to date. Having proven the viability of the eWave concept to themselves, many experienced builders are now venturing forward into more sophisticated (and more expensive) design upgrades.

If we think about it in terms of eWave being a high-frequency module, a "tweeter," if you will, it may be seen that total system performance may vary significantly using different woofers, and the selection will depend upon various performance objectives. In more concrete terms, as example, several eWavers are looking to higher efficiency designs with more articulate midrange than the extended-bass systems most have built to date. Implicity, these will be augmented with subwoofers, as is commonly done in home theater, to make up the difference. Geddes suggests this is an optimum approach; none of his "mains" even pretend to play low bass. Others will counter that what's "right" according to Geddes may not be so for everyone....

 

[djnagle]

I have heard eWaves with JBL LE14s, Advents, HPM, and mine - ESS AMT 1C. They all had a different sound but they all sounded great. I know someone here in S.E. Michigan that just bought a pair of ESS AMT 1C just for the Heil tweeters. He doesn't know what to do with the cabs with the woofer and PR..........Hint Hint

Op, I heard an eWave with KEF too. Sounded great.

 

[Zilch]

I think Zilch mentioned a setup with an SEAS woofer similar to the one in the Dynaco A-25. The Dynaco A-25 is one of my all time favs, so that has peaked my curiosity. I am watching to see what new information about it that Zilch puts out.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_258&products_id=8638