Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

Wayne can probably tell us the difference between 12M and 12S, and why he chose 12S for use in 3-Pi.

Zilch, so the LE14H is > or < LE14H-1? And what about the LE14H-4? Are not all the LE14's a continuum of development?

H is ferrite version of A. H-1 is performance equivalent of H-3 in the older basket. Both are SFG, I believe, whereas H and A are not. H-4 is H-3 with less cone mass and thus less extended bass but arguably better mids. Think 2234H vs 2235H.

Details on LHF, but don't ask or you'll likely suffer the "We've been over this MANY times before; use SEARCH, stupid" treatment.

[From me, maybe, if I catch it first.... :tongue: ]

For Simi:

 

[similost]

I just got done talking to Newman about the TD15M, and some really great info..

He did say as I had kind of figured that with the M, you will get a little deeper bass than you would with the S. He also said that the dissipation (excursion) of the Lambda drivers is going to be a lot less than it would with the LE14, hence better detail, however they won't seem as loud at the same powered levels because there is less dispersion or compression.. or hell.. you know what I mean.. He said the detail at louder volumes will be much greater with the Lambda..

He also said the cone shape is basically that of the Altec drivers, hence a better mid range, and the flatness of their curve makes crossing over at most points a lot easier..

However, it sounds like mixing that driver with the BMS driver, I may need an L-pad on the cross.. I don't know though.. just speculating.

 

[Duffinator]

H is ferrite version of A. H-1 is performance equivalent of H-3 in the older basket. Both are SFG, I believe, whereas H and A are not. H-4 is H-3 with less cone mass and thus less extended bass but arguably better mids. Think 2234H vs 2235H.

Thanks, the LE14H was throwing me off.

 

[castlesteve]

I've been looking at this picture here and doing a little thinking and reading... (BTW, Steve is in my area, and would be cool to give these a listen since I couldn't make that gathering he just had this past month)

These are the same cabs I would be putting mine in. I've also been reading a little about baffle spacing and such...

So if I were to use something like the TD15M along with the wave guide you pointed out Zilch, am I going to have a problem trying to fit a 15" driver with that waveguide in the baffle? I didn't get the measurements on the WG.... just trying to decide if there is room in the baffle for both, and if there is, would there be any problems with the sound if they are placed too close together?

Or would be be better off building a cab like above and placing the horn WG in that?

I really need to get the idea of this project nailed down before I present the final idea to the wife. She already has an idea of the cost, but I don't know if the WG on top is going to be acceptable if that's the way it would need to be done.

I just saw this post. Anytime you want to have a listen, you`d be most welcome. We are doing a small meet after Chrismas to get ready for the 6V6 amp competition if anyone is interested. Email me if you want to hear them.

 

[similost]

I just saw this post. Anytime you want to have a listen, you`d be most welcome. We are doing a small meet after Chrismas to get ready for the 6V6 amp competition if anyone is interested. Email me if you want to hear them.

I'd like to try and make the date ofter Christmas. That would work out pretty good for me timing wise. I had something happen your last meet, and I can't remember what it was, but I was bummin I couldn't make it.

I'd really like seeing some of the amps ya'll build too, but really want to give your speakers a listen since I'll be using the same box, but going with a different load of drivers. I'd like to really know the difference in sound between the TD15's and the LE14's

I'll drop you a PM in the next couple days.

 

[Duffinator]

I just saw this post. Anytime you want to have a listen, you`d be most welcome. We are doing a small meet after Chrismas to get ready for the 6V6 amp competition if anyone is interested. Email me if you want to hear them.

Steve, I'm curious why you didn't put the waveguide in the cabinet?

 

[similost]

Looking at Steve's and yours duff, I'm thinking because he wanted to the get LF driver up closer to ear level and that didn't leave room for the horn...

 

[golana]

I have never in-mounted mine neither.
LE14A in a 4+ cab. It gives me options
if I want to do anything else in the future.
I can see both sides to it, but I'm single
and not held down by WAF,m so i
don't care.

 

[EarlK]

H is ferrite version of A. H-1 is performance equivalent of H-3 in the older basket. Both are SFG, I believe, whereas H and A are not. H-4 is H-3 with less cone mass and thus less extended bass but arguably better mids. Think 2234H vs 2235H.

- I'll argue that the Le14H is SFG , based purely on the sound of the pair that I own . Since they're so rare / it's really a moot point .

- The notion ( got started over at LHF somehow ) that their first ceramics weren't SFG ( how this rumour developed I don't remember ) / but I'm convinced that it was a misinterpretation of some other point being made at the time .

- OTOH, JBL did change ( tighten up ) the compliances on a few of the 2nd generation ceramic magnet versions / plus , they developed deeper voice-coils for greater Xmax ( in a few of the 2nd gen. SFG products ) .

<> cheers

 

[Dr. Beaker]

Yes. None of us can dedicate the requisite attention to optimizing multiple designs. WiredGuy and I have an LE14A/BMS 4555 design in progress here, and we'll eventually get to doing a crossover for that.
:

I have a severe case of Upgraditis and I'm sure it is not curable. Given a crossover design (that is beyond my abilities) I would go for the BMS 4555 and the 1.5 inch waveguide to go with my LE14A system.

Watching closely.

Go Zilch!

 

[rage]

I uh...bought more speakers last night.

Cerwin Vega D7s.

VegaWaves!

It took me all of 20 minutes of owning them to flip them upside down, screw my horn to the "base" and remove the zobel in my XO network......

They rock.

Thus far around 10db of attenuation, need a bit more I think. They seem to go pretty deep and the midrange is surprisingly clear.

Going to measure tonight.

Damn I'm addicted!

 

[bugs762]

Might be a silly question, but you never know until you ask. I'm waffling on whether I want to cut up my Boston A100 cabinets. One reason is that I just rebuilt the crossovers in them about six months ago. So, the waveguides sit bare naked on top the cabinets along with the XO and wires running in and out of the cabinet.

My questions is, will the wave guides sound any different placed in a cabinet than they do right now sitting precariously on top of the speaker cabinet? Does being in an enclosure change the way they sound?

Thanks

 

[Wayne Parham]

Wayne can probably tell us the difference between 12M and 12S, and why he chose 12S for use in 3-Pi.

I had a lot of discussions with Nick McKinney back when I decided to evaluate AE woofers for my speakers. My goal was to find a woofer that could be used as an upgrade for the three Pi, something like the JBL 2226 is for the four Pi. That way, the builder has their choice between two good families of products, either AE or JBL, either make very nice top-of-the-line products.

There are several versions of AE woofers in each size range, some have round wire voice coils, some have edgewound rectangular, etc. They all also have different T/S specs. For me, it came down to a matter of electro-mechanical parameters, as the 12S is a perfect drop-in for the existing three Pi cabinet, making it the perfect upgrade part. Nice bass, slightly overdamped just like I want it. The midrange is also very smoooooooth.

 

[similost]

the overdamped is pretty much what Dave was telling me about the TD15M... That it sounds really fantastic, but seems a little quieter than other drivers would at the same power levels because of that.. and that you won't hear much better...

 

[Zilch]

- I'll argue that the Le14H is SFG , based purely on the sound of the pair that I own . Since they're so rare / it's really a moot point .

My pair of "H" are one white and one black. Could be the black one got an "H-1" kit, which may have been a mistake.

Also have a pair of "A" with "H-1" kits, done at a time when "A" kits were N/A and rumored discontinued. When they subsequently became available again, I photographed the voice coils of both, which I posted on LHF. Not sure, but I THINK "H-1" kits in "A" motors was a mistake, but I'll pretend not and just enjoy them 'til otherwise informed.

I have a severe case of Upgraditis and I'm sure it is not curable. Given a crossover design (that is beyond my abilities) I would go for the BMS 4555 and the 1.5 inch waveguide to go with my LE14A system.

That combo is in my test stands with LE14H-1 woofers, visible in many ZilchLab pics I post here. It's hearing those that convinced Mxlews, Duff, SrBliss, and a bunch of others of the efficacy of waveguide two-ways, and thus, EconoWave was born.

I never worked out a crossover for them, and still run them on vintage Altec Model 19 crossovers. It's WiredGuy's C36s have LE14As with BMS 4555s, shown earlier in this thread, and will get a variant of Jack's excellent eWave derivative of Wayne's Pi-Speaker design. :yes:

VegaWaves!

It took me all of 20 minutes of owning them to flip them upside down, screw my horn to the "base" and remove the zobel in my XO network......

They rock.

Damn I'm addicted!

Seems so!

[That works, apparently. :thmbsp: ]

Might be a silly question, but you never know until you ask. I'm waffling on whether I want to cut up my Boston A100 cabinets. One reason is that I just rebuilt the crossovers in them about six months ago. So, the waveguides sit bare naked on top the cabinets along with the XO and wires running in and out of the cabinet.

My questions is, will the wave guides sound any different placed in a cabinet than they do right now sitting precariously on top of the speaker cabinet? Does being in an enclosure change the way they sound?

In detail, the waveguide measures differently mounted on a baffle as opposed to freestanding. A100s are a WiredGuy project, and he's now refoaming the woofers. We should have some data soon, and maybe a surprise or two along with.

There are several versions of AE woofers in each size range, some have round wire voice coils, some have edgewound rectangular, etc. They all also have different T/S specs. For me, it came down to a matter of electro-mechanical parameters, as the 12S is a perfect drop-in for the existing three Pi cabinet, making it the perfect upgrade part. Nice bass, slightly overdamped just like I want it. The midrange is also very smoooooooth.

Thanks, Wayne. I'll be springing for a pair of the 12" AEs here soon to put in the PE Trap cabs; just gotta decide between the "M" and "S" variants....

 

[jpoitras]

I'll be springing for a pair of the 12" AEs here soon to put in the PE Trap cabs; just gotta decide between the "M" and "S" variants....

Not that you want my advise, since I'm just a long time lurker, first time poster, I'd say it depends on what your priorities are. If you need a small box, the TD12M is your best choice, because it works well in one cubic feet(net volume). If sensitivity is you priority, again I’d choose the TD12M, because it is around 3.5db more sensitive. If low frequency is your priority, then I’d go with the TD12S. The TD12S has an f3 of 40hz in a three cubic feet box, while the TD12M MUST be used with a subwoofer.

John

 

[Wayne Parham]

Not that you want my advise, since I'm just a long time lurker, first time poster, I'd say it depends on what your priorities are. If you need a small box, the TD12M is your best choice, because it works well in one cubic feet(net volume). If sensitivity is you priority, again I’d choose the TD12M, because it is around 3.5db more sensitive. If low frequency is your priority, then I’d go with the TD12S. The TD12S has an f3 of 40hz in a three cubic feet box, while the TD12M MUST be used with a subwoofer.

Lurker or not, I'd agree with that assessment.

Three Pi speakers are almost exactly that - three foot vented cabs and they sound mighty nice, even without subs.

But personally, I'd still recommend subs, mostly for smoothing room modes using the multisub thing. You get a little more extension and a lot smoother bass too.

 

[djnagle]

Lurker or not, I'd agree with that assessment.

Three Pi speakers are almost exactly that - three foot vented cabs and they sound mighty nice, even without subs.

But personally, I'd still recommend subs, mostly for smoothing room modes using the multisub thing. You get a little more extension and a lot smoother bass too.

Sorry - OT - but, About multi subs. I have two VERY good subs now. I also have a KLH sub. Will it help if I put it in the system at low volume?

 

[castlesteve]

Looking at Steve's and yours duff, I'm thinking because he wanted to the get LF driver up closer to ear level and that didn't leave room for the horn...

That`s exactly what i was thinking. I didn`t have much room on the baffle to fit the Le14 and the precision port which are really wide. I`ll post when the meet is set up after the holidays.

 

[Wayne Parham]

Sorry - OT - but, About multi subs. I have two VERY good subs now. I also have a KLH sub. Will it help if I put it in the system at low volume?

Yes, I would do exactly that. The more subs you have, the better. I would probably run two of them fairly close to the mains, maybe three to five feet away, and low-pass them fairly high, something like 60-90Hz. They shouldn't be right under the mains either - some distance - just not too far. I call these flanking subs. Don't high-pass the mains, let them run all the way down and overlap with the subs. These will smooth the higher room modes, up to just under the vocal range. Then take that one sub and put it further away, and low-pass it lower. Don't run it high enough you can even tell it's there. Its job is to do nothing but smooth the lower room modes.