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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Well I do just happen to have this really cool book that a really great member around here gave me about speaker building ;) I've read a bunch of it, but that sure doesn't mean I understand most of it..

I've been wanting to buy a good mic for quite a while, but would an everyday good mic (I've been looking at a Heil mic) work for taking measurements? and there is good free software for measuring?
 
I have 4 - Dayton RS225s (8 ohm shielded version) that were going to be used for another project. How do you think a pair of them would mate with the E-wave.

I am thinking 80-100 liters ported with the two woofers (in parallel) side by side and the WG on top (like a JBL 4435 .. but centered).

Thoughts?
 
I actually think I read them buying like $50 dollar mics. I just can't justify that either. Bunch of guys and 5 ea. doesn't sound as bad.

Don't know 'bout parameters or quality of what you need tho.Heil?
 
Heil Sound.. Some of the best mikes on the market right now, at pretty decent prices. A lot of the biggest singers and drummers are using them now..

I've been looking at the PR-20UT

Or The Fin

You can get some nice deals on them on the bay. They aren't $50 mics, but it will probably be the last mic you would ever need to buy. Like I said, I've been thinking about buying one for quite a while. Maybe this will give me the excuse if I can get measuring software for free.. or cheap... and if a mic like that would even work.'
 
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Woah... and now I am crazy lost... So ok... so if I get the TD15m and the BMS 4555's will someone be able to help me suss out a crossover for this, or am I going to be driving myself crazy trying to understand all this electronic stuff I don't understand?

I asked a similar question a week or two ago. I think we, meaning at least 3 or 4 of us, have expressed interest in working with the BMS drivers for the uWave system design (u = ultimate rather than e = econo). Of course this would be simpler if "we" could settle on a driver, horn, and crossover point rather than asking for help designing 3 or 4 similar but different designs.
 
I am pretty positive I will be using the JBL guide that Zilch pointed out to me. I'll have to do some measuring to be sure I can fit in in the baffle though before I decide for sure, but I've heard nothing but great things about the BMS drivers, and they are a lot more affordable than JBL drivers..

My LF driver is the only thing I'm really trying to decide on at the moment.. I know a few around here have bought the Lambda drivers, and I'm waiting to hear back from one person I sent a PM to yesterday about his thoughts on it after living with it for a while now. I would love to go with the JBL driver, but I seriously doubt I'll find a pair new, and I don't want to mess with anything used for this project.. well, other than the cabs.
 
In the spirit of econo I humbly submit!

Selenium HM17-25

Selenium Datasheet

Third party polars

For your consideration- a smooth throated, nearly axisymmetric horn, that maintains pattern control down near to 1k. With a little effort, one could probably clean up the mouth termination effects and get this running smoothly. As- is, a single notch filter and highpass, used at 2k, could have this as a very attractive alternative waveguide, if one can live with the narrow dispersion.

I have these, as well as the JbL PT waveguide (well, those are in-transit) and the Parts-Express 12" round guide, and am working on OS builds, but haven't gotten to the quality I want.

Just as a point of interest- the Parts-express waveguide has a rather rough throat and it's larger than 25mm, so I'm thinking about methods to flesh this out. Current solution is a metal ring or about 27mm diameter and 25mm inner diameter epoxied into the very start of the throat, then used as a pivot point to wire-form clay or some such to match the rest of the waveguide profile. Haven't found the right type of metal ring yet, though. A keyring seems the closest real-world device, thus far but can't find one with a 1" precision inner diameter.

So, perhaps a "variants" thread may be warranted, though I may do a more formal writeup. Will update as things progress.
 
The Heils are nice dynamic mics, but not the best as measurement mics. You'll want a flat (frequency response) condenser or electret condenser. The electrets are the cheap ones everyone uses. You will want an omnidirectional polar pattern, too, and all of those basic electret capsules are. You can DIY them for a few dollars or spend a few bucks more for the Behringer or Dayton versions.

You will need a mic preamp with phantom power (condensers require 48Vdc bias voltage to operate, but the electrets typically run on maybe 15Vdc. However you can feed them standard 48V phantom without a problem.

Most of the USB preamps used by speakergeeks provide phantom powering. Or you might already have a mixer which has it, then you could use the "built in" sound interface on your computer.

Heil Sound.. Some of the best mikes on the market right now, at pretty decent prices. A lot of the biggest singers and drummers are using them now..

I've been looking at the PR-20UT

Or The Fin

You can get some nice deals on them on the bay. They aren't $50 mics, but it will probably be the last mic you would ever need to buy. Like I said, I've been thinking about buying one for quite a while. Maybe this will give me the excuse if I can get measuring software for free.. or cheap... and if a mic like that would even work.'
 
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behringer mic is $50. free shipping through PE, although I would spend the extra $5 rather than waiting a bit over a week.

there is free RTA software out there, I'm not home to check what I've been using.

you're almost there if you have the mixer! another $50 and some free software and you are up and running.
then you just have to figure out what the hell you are doing. :)
(as do I)
 
Well.. I also need to come up with about $1500 for parts... I mean I have it, but if I sell some stuff instead of just spending money, my wife will be a lot happier and easier going about it.. I also will be waiting for parts I'm sure.. This is a good excuse to clean out a bunch of stuff I need to sell off anyway.
 
I paid $3 more for the ECM8000... hope I didn't buy the wrong mic! looks very similar.
 
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Thanks you much Zilch.. I think I'll be getting that ordered... If I'm gonna spend what I am to build these speakers, I guess I can drop at least that.

I bet that would be good to plug into my Behringer crossover and use it to get my Altecs tuned too... would be a massive help with timing them...
 
Lemme ask this now that I think about it.. Once I get these speakers built, then use the Behringer crossover to experiment with the crossover points and type with this mic plugged into it.. would that help me get the right parts for a passive crossover built for them? Or am I way off thinking I can use an active to even get close to the same thing?
 
The wife was insisting that I tell her what I want for Christmas. I don't need this but it looks like a really nice toy for speaker/crossover testing.

DEQ2496 UltraCurvePro

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-661

And I guess this is the microphone...


Am I missing anything other than a mic cable and stand for a complete system? Looks like $375 or so will do it. Just plig and play?

As an alternative, what is the recommended set up for a PC-based system to generate those pretty graphs? mic, USB pre-amp, soundcard, and software? I would appreciate any suggested model/part numbers to assemble a complete system...or a link to the thread where it was already done.

My backordered PH612 waveguides came in today so I finally have everything to start assembling and testing my second set of eWaves. Christmas is going to be loud! :thmbsp:
 
Yes, that's the crossover I have, but not sure how that would work out for experimenting with building these waves. That's why I was asking Zilch about it.

BTW, I use my crossover for my big rig in the basement.. tri amping..
 
Catching Up:

I don't suppose it matters, but the data sheet for the DC300-8 quotes 90.5db. Is this rating off?
No, that's right. Measured, it's 90.39, published in BB6P, 92, data sheet, 90.5. I fixed the post, but in doing so, noted the 2:48 AM time stamp. ;)

So if I get the TD15m and the BMS 4555's will someone be able to help me suss out a crossover for this, or am I going to be driving myself crazy trying to understand all this electronic stuff I don't understand?
What Donprice says below; it's unlikely I will acquire a pair of TD15M woofers. Wayne is using the 12S in 3-Pi; consider purchasing his "kit" and installing in your Barzilays, perhaps.

You know what'd be SWEEEET, would be to find a some free soft ware, and mic/ stand. sortof as a community mail around, for your situation, Simi. Or the rest of us who are in the same kind of boat. :scratch2:
I have several times suggested that local groups pool funds and purchase a DEQ2496 to share. Problem is, as mentioned, despite being stand-alone, turnkey, and portable, it's also an EQ, and the sharing part suffers once somebody builds that into their system.

Well I do just happen to have this really cool book that a really great member around here gave me about speaker building ;) I've read a bunch of it, but that sure doesn't mean I understand most of it..
It's reference. As I learn more, I go back and read again, and it gradually becomes more understandable. The D'Appolito book is the tough one. :tongue:

I have 4 - Dayton RS225s (8 ohm shielded version) that were going to be used for another project. How do you think a pair of them would mate with the E-wave.

I am thinking 80-100 liters ported with the two woofers (in parallel) side by side and the WG on top (like a JBL 4435 .. but centered).
Yes, but I'd use a single and the 6" square waveguide. Paired woofers, you'll want to run one of them in "0.5" mode which extends the bass, but does not increase the midrange efficiency.

I asked a similar question a week or two ago. I think we, meaning at least 3 or 4 of us, have expressed interest in working with the BMS drivers for the uWave system design (u = ultimate rather than e = econo). Of course this would be simpler if "we" could settle on a driver, horn, and crossover point rather than asking for help designing 3 or 4 similar but different designs.
Yes. None of us can dedicate the requisite attention to optimizing multiple designs. WiredGuy and I have an LE14A/BMS 4555 design in progress here, and we'll eventually get to doing a crossover for that.

For your consideration- a smooth throated, nearly axisymmetric horn, that maintains pattern control down near to 1k. With a little effort, one could probably clean up the mouth termination effects and get this running smoothly. As- is, a single notch filter and highpass, used at 2k, could have this as a very attractive alternative waveguide, if one can live with the narrow dispersion.
And the hole at 13 kHz. It's a tweeter horn, actually, and might have applicability in smaller-scale projects. I think some of the others we have tried are better options from the specs, is all.

I paid $3 more for the ECM8000... hope I didn't buy the wrong mic! looks very similar.
Same mic, basically, by all determinations to date.

Lemme ask this now that I think about it.. Once I get these speakers built, then use the Behringer crossover to experiment with the crossover points and type with this mic plugged into it.. would that help me get the right parts for a passive crossover built for them? Or am I way off thinking I can use an active to even get close to the same thing?
They are not the same thing; it would only offer a baseline transfer function as a starting point for a passive design.

The wife was insisting that I tell her what I want for Christmas. I don't need this but it looks like a really nice toy for speaker/crossover testing.

DEQ2496 UltraCurvePro

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-661

And I guess this is the microphone...



Am I missing anything other than a mic cable and stand for a complete system? Looks like $375 or so will do it. Just plig and play?

As an alternative, what is the recommended set up for a PC-based system to generate those pretty graphs? mic, USB pre-amp, soundcard, and software? I would appreciate any suggested model/part numbers to assemble a complete system...or a link to the thread where it was already done.

My backordered PH612 waveguides came in today so I finally have everything to start assembling and testing my second set of eWaves. Christmas is going to be loud! :thmbsp:
Yes, all that. You can see Jack using his DEQ to design eWave and its variants througout this thread. It's turnkey, basically.

The PC-based solutions have higher resolution (and all the dilemmas that presents,) but a steeper learning curve. There are several threads in this forum discussing alternatives, but no "formula" has been comprehensively evaluated. You'll find the same process going on at other sites, as well.

The list that nobody has yet made is long and getting longer each day, it seems.... :yes:
 
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I paid $3 more for the ECM8000... hope I didn't buy the wrong mic! looks very similar.

Either one is fine. Send it off and get a calc. file for it. You can then enter that file into your measuring software and it will compensate for the mic where it isnt flat.

Russellc
 
The wife was insisting that I tell her what I want for Christmas. I don't need this but it looks like a really nice toy for speaker/crossover testing.

DEQ2496 UltraCurvePro

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-661

And I guess this is the microphone...



Am I missing anything other than a mic cable and stand for a complete system? Looks like $375 or so will do it. Just plig and play?

As an alternative, what is the recommended set up for a PC-based system to generate those pretty graphs? mic, USB pre-amp, soundcard, and software? I would appreciate any suggested model/part numbers to assemble a complete system...or a link to the thread where it was already done.

My backordered PH612 waveguides came in today so I finally have everything to start assembling and testing my second set of eWaves. Christmas is going to be loud! :thmbsp:

In the begining of this thread, this is exactly the piece Zilch, Skywave, Jack and others were using....some still are.:yes:

Russellc
 
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