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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

So you think a 12" driver would work out OK? I've been reading up on the Lambda drivers pretty hard, and they sure do seem to get a lot of praises. I will be calling about the JBL's but I'm just looking at options in case I can't get my hands on any.

So there are no real drawbacks with the guide and the woofer being placed too close together?
 
So there are no real drawbacks with the guide and the woofer being placed too close together?
They should be as close together as practical within the limits of an aesthetically pleasing design, as that is an element in the spacing of the vertical nulls.... :yes:
 
similost,

what driver load is in your barzilays now?

from what I've read above, they are bozaks....thoughts on the bozak 12" woofer if that is indeed the case?

I've heard good things about them and have 4 of them now, just wondering if they are a good ewave candidate and what kind of efficiency they have.

my existing bozak setup sounds pretty good but rolls off steep at about 12k.

I realize you are looking more to the high end of things, I'm more of a cheap ass myself. :)
 
I've got the 302a load in them.. yes, it's a 12" I believe.... Lots of great bass... but no highs, and the mids aren't too bad..

The problem with the Bozak woofer is they won't play up high enough to cross with a good compression driver... I have no idea what their rolloff point is, but not one person I've talked to believes they will play high enough.

In this case, I've decieded that it's going to be worth it to spend money on a really top notch LF driver, as also with the HF driver... I'm getting tired of doing things half way, so I figure it's time to just drop the cash now and be done with it. There is something about getting what you pay for that seems to be true most every time..
 
They should be as close together as practical within the limits of an aesthetically pleasing design, as that is an element in the spacing of the vertical nulls.... :yes:

Another thing to consider is trying to have the center line of waveguide at roughly ear level.

In our comparisons, we preferred the sound of all the waveguides when they were raised up to ear level.

Geddes Abbey, Yorkville Unity and E-Wave Advent listening session
 
Driver Swap:

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I thought it would be the other way around.
Great match with the Daytons.
Have you done the diaphragm rotation trick you taught us for Selenium with the blue DE250 (set #1)?
 
No, I didn't want to alter anything, and that's the one I've been working with recently here, ignoring the VHF spike at the top.

We can see that my earlier "slightly overcompensated" conclusion may well have been derived from using using #2 for the initial evaluation, and if so (I'll check the notes,) baffle mounting has not altered that significantly. I'll order up another pair to evaluate the manufacturing consistency before cleaning and re-aligning #1, if that one proves to be anomalous. Using #2, I get within +/- 1.5 dB by adjusting the comp as previously described.

Dayton DC300 woofer #2 is fresh out of the box and may come up that little bit with breaking in. The L-pad's way down around 8:30 even with the standard low-efficiency XO because the Dayton woofer's 90.5 dB sensitivity and DE250 is both more efficient than D220Ti and requires less HF comp.

It certainly appears as though the filters are in control.... :thmbsp:
 
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That's the descriptor, not the part number. They come from JBL Pro Parts, Part# 338650-001, $113 each MSRP on the current price list
Just a thought here. I tried to order me another set of these waveguides a week or two ago and was told they were out of stock till sometime after the 1st, BUT I tried again yesterday with my fingers crossed and got lucky. They either found a set somewhere, or some came in from Mexico, so you might not want to wait too long to order these.
 
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I've got the 302a load in them.. yes, it's a 12" I believe.... Lots of great bass... but no highs, and the mids aren't too bad..

The problem with the Bozak woofer is they won't play up high enough to cross with a good compression driver... I have no idea what their rolloff point is, but not one person I've talked to believes they will play high enough.

In this case, I've decieded that it's going to be worth it to spend money on a really top notch LF driver, as also with the HF driver... I'm getting tired of doing things half way, so I figure it's time to just drop the cash now and be done with it. There is something about getting what you pay for that seems to be true most every time..


+1 on "go listen" Dropping money to do it right doesn't mean 1 time. It just gives you something kick ass to listen thru while you research, squander and build the next set. I 'd make double sure of the drivers you want, for sure, as these will be with you for awhile. LE14s might fit.
 
What I know about the Lambda is the low LE must make a big diff in detail. Thinking about the choke of a power supply reducing ac ripple, the LE of a driver, if low, does not reduce the ripple of the signal coming into the driver. Might be dead wrong about this, but it seems to make sense.
 
DC300 Efficiency

I don't suppose it matters, but the data sheet for the DC300-8 quotes 90.5db. Is this rating off? I seem to be able to play loud in my modded Mach1's w/o clipping a Carver TFM-15, Nikko Alpha 400, or Kenwood M1. I haven't hooked them up to the Kenwood M2 yet, but I suspect they will do well.

Dayton DC300 woofer #2 is fresh out of the box and may come up that little bit with breaking in. The L-pad's way down around 8:30 even with the standard low-efficiency XO because the Dayton woofer's only 85 dB sensitivity and DE250 is both more efficient than D220Ti and requires less HF comp.
QUOTE]
 
What I know about the Lambda is the low LE must make a big diff in detail. Thinking about the choke of a power supply reducing ac ripple, the LE of a driver, if low, does not reduce the ripple of the signal coming into the driver. Might be dead wrong about this, but it seems to make sense.

I'm lost... :saywhat:
 
What I know about the Lambda is the low LE must make a big diff in detail. Thinking about the choke of a power supply reducing ac ripple, the LE of a driver, if low, does not reduce the ripple of the signal coming into the driver. Might be dead wrong about this, but it seems to make sense.

It makes a big difference in the transfer function of the crossover because the load is more resistive. Most woofers need a Zobel or there's a big peak around the crossover frequency. See page 43 of my crossover document and page 14 of the schematics lab handout for my "Crossover Electronics 101 seminar". The formula handout from the "Crossover Electronics 101" seminar is pretty handy too.

Anyway, you'll notice in those handouts that the Spice models show a 10dB to 14dB peak around the crossover frequency on most woofers using a second-order (or higher) crossover. This is seen in the measured response curve too. At the Crossover Electronics 101 seminar, we examine these circuits on paper and then play music through these exact circuits connected to speakers. You can really hear that peak, it's huge.

The peak is caused by voice coil inductance and its interaction with the passive crossover. Basically, it makes the filter "see" a load higher than it was designed for, so it's underdamped at higher frequencies. The solution is usually a conjugate filter, in this case a Zobel or RC damper.

The AE woofers are fairly unusual, as they present a mostly resistive load, even at the relatively high frequencies required of them as a midwoofer in a DI-matched two-way. When I first designed with them, I expected to need much smaller capacitance in the Zobel, but I didn't expect to omit it entirely. But that's how it works best, at least in my case. I expect the same for your efforts here, because the speakers you're building are functionally very similar to mine.

The link below describes my design process for loudspeakers like these, and in fact, shows a crossover schematic using an AE TD12S woofer and DE250 compression driver on an H290 horn. You'll notice in the schematic, the builder can choose between an AE TD12S woofer or an Eminence 12LF, and the difference between them is mostly the presence or absence of the Zobel.

 
Woah... and now I am crazy lost... So ok... so if I get the TD15m and the BMS 4555's will someone be able to help me suss out a crossover for this, or am I going to be driving myself crazy trying to understand all this electronic stuff I don't understand?
 
I've heard that peak at crossover frequency and measured it. It is huge. (with my dc-250 woofers) the zobel tames it a great deal and I am still experimenting with it and remeasuring after modifying the zobel.

I'm not yet where I can read your crossover document all the way through yet, Wayne... but I'll get there!

I bet sitting in one of your seminars would be a great educational experience.

As is following this thread and doing this project!

My friend that bought the RTA and mic won't let me borrow his setup so I've bought my own mic and am going to get my own measuring setup going... I suspect you may end up in the same boat similost!
 
Oh no.. I'm not gonna be buying measuring equipment because I just can't justify that cost for a one time use to tune one pair of speakers. Once these are done, I'm not going to be building any more... (I hope, cause my wife will kill me if I do anything else after the cost of these.. )
 
Oh no.. I'm not gonna be buying measuring equipment because I just can't justify that cost for a one time use to tune one pair of speakers. Once these are done, I'm not going to be building any more... (I hope, cause my wife will kill me if I do anything else after the cost of these.. )

I built some Indignias before trying to take on the Econowaves. Kind of a low cost prep-course. I have the crossover boards for the E-waves and will build them someday, but like you, I felt a little intimidated.

After building the Indignias, I have a little bit better understanding of how this all fits together AND I bought a book about speaker design. I would STONGLY advise at least getting a book. :yes:
 
You know what'd be SWEEEET, would be to find a some free soft ware, and mic/ stand. sortof as a community mail around, for your situation, Simi. Or the rest of us who are in the same kind of boat. :scratch2: I got a Ten or Twenty spot, after that it'd be just mail cost.
 
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