mcmurma
Active Member
Excellent info, thanks much!
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Excellent info, thanks much!
similost
Rockin and Rollin....
Thanks. I didn't catch it was a link. Not sure what all I'm seeing, but it does look good..
I see that one is of the 15x. I sure would love to see that for the same driver compared to one with the Apollo upgrade to see if there is anything distinguishable in differences..
Yes, very remarkable woofers, I'll never give mine up.. I was just doing some heavy duty listening last night, and as time goes on, and things have been breaking in (which I never would have believed) mine boxes are getting smoother and smoother sounding all the time...
I see that one is of the 15x. I sure would love to see that for the same driver compared to one with the Apollo upgrade to see if there is anything distinguishable in differences..
Yes, very remarkable woofers, I'll never give mine up.. I was just doing some heavy duty listening last night, and as time goes on, and things have been breaking in (which I never would have believed) mine boxes are getting smoother and smoother sounding all the time...
donprice
Wound up workin' at a gas station....
I don't know but I would assume size factors in there somewhere. But if it was cheap and easy, we would probably already be doing it.
QSC DE250 3012LF Listening Session
After seeing the latest improvements to the crossover I stopped by ZilchLab for a listen and to pick up a couple of pairs of crossover boards. We listened to a Peter Gabriel cut as well as a few cuts from Roger Waters' Amused to Death. If you haven't listened to Q Sounds get this Amused to Death. It has to be experienced to believed. The effects were coming from all over the room.
Although the volume probably never exceeded 85db, I was impressed by the detail and dynamics coming from this system. I never felt the need to have it any louder. The bass was solid even at these levels and I am sure that if the speakers were closer to the room boundaries it would have been much more so. All of the pros of the controlled directivity that those of us that have joined the econo movement enjoy were there and maybe a bit more. This system sound a bit more "right" than any that I have listened to in the past. I am familiar with the the QSC and DE250 combo as well as the 3012LF and HO woofer, but I have not heard them with an optimized crossover until yesterday and I am very impressed. I think "neutral to a fault" is how Zilch described these and I concur. My order for trap cabs and a parts is going in today! Happy 2nd birthday and thanks for all who have worked on progressing the econo movement.
After seeing the latest improvements to the crossover I stopped by ZilchLab for a listen and to pick up a couple of pairs of crossover boards. We listened to a Peter Gabriel cut as well as a few cuts from Roger Waters' Amused to Death. If you haven't listened to Q Sounds get this Amused to Death. It has to be experienced to believed. The effects were coming from all over the room.
Although the volume probably never exceeded 85db, I was impressed by the detail and dynamics coming from this system. I never felt the need to have it any louder. The bass was solid even at these levels and I am sure that if the speakers were closer to the room boundaries it would have been much more so. All of the pros of the controlled directivity that those of us that have joined the econo movement enjoy were there and maybe a bit more. This system sound a bit more "right" than any that I have listened to in the past. I am familiar with the the QSC and DE250 combo as well as the 3012LF and HO woofer, but I have not heard them with an optimized crossover until yesterday and I am very impressed. I think "neutral to a fault" is how Zilch described these and I concur. My order for trap cabs and a parts is going in today! Happy 2nd birthday and thanks for all who have worked on progressing the econo movement.
Turns out, it's not my filing system in trouble, but my retrieval system:
As a bonus, here's the vertical polar map of the PAIR, taken at 22.5° off-axis horizontally:
That's about where we listen to them if they're not toed-in, also the response in the Geddes extreme toe-in alignment. Looks like we're good (-6 dB) to very nearly +/- 15° from the 2.6° upwardly-tilted forward axis. :yes:
Here's the horizontal out to 45°:
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It's interesting to compare Brandon's polars of the eWaveguide and QSC. The "business" portion of the QSC is about the same with respect to pattern control, with a substantial proportion of the QSC's larger frontal area dedicated to the integral mouth roundover.
Geddes would likely find a "diffraction device" to criticize in there somewhere, but I sure don't see one. When the day comes that we are able to measure HOMs, the full story will become clear....
marantzfan
...
juniorJBL
SUB 1500 :)
Geddes would likely find a "diffraction device" to criticize in there somewhere, but I sure don't see one. When the day comes that we are able to measure HOMs, the full story will become clear....
As Mud!
rage
Well-Known Member
jbl pt with bolt on adapter.
Hello Zilch and company!
First of all, fantastic work on the project. I have been itching to build a new project using constant directivity waveguides for a few months now. I was actually browsing one of the threads over on diyaudio.com (I believe it was horn vs. waveguide thread) when I stumbled upon this gem.
On that note, I have a few questions that may have been answered, but the thread is so massive that it is a little difficult to navigate without links. I have looked over both the standard and premium versions of the design and I have ran into a bit of a problem.
I would like to use the QSC waveguide based on my research. In addition, I want to use a higher sensitivity woofer to bring the overall sensitivity to around 95db 1W/1m, but the cost of the deluxe version is a little difficult to swallow. My original budget is around ~$500, preferably with most of the cabinet materials factored in.
My first plan for reduction is a different choice in woofers. Since this design works because the directivity of the woofer matches the horn at the crossover point, using another 12 inch woofer shouldn't be too much of a problem. After a lot of comparisons I found the best compromise in the Eminence 12A II:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-408&ctab=1#Tabs
It models well in around 1.5-2 cubes sealed fully stuffed and it still has a decent amount of throw at 4.4mm. This brings my cost down to $300 with cabinets each, which is a very reasonable compromise I think.
I read somewhere in the thread that there was a plan to try a different compression driver (perhaps the selenium used in the standard kit?) with the QSC horn. Was this ever tested? If something like that worked, it would bring my cost down further to around $218, which is RIGHT up my alley
What are your thoughts? I don't see anything wrong with changing the woofer, (a slight change in frequency response). However, the change in the compression driver is a bit difficult for me to justify without concrete measurements, which obviously requires me to buy both. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Edit: After more researching I am starting to lean towards the original Selenium, JBL design. The price is very good and though I don't doubt the performance offered by the B&C/QSC combination, I do I have a budget I need to be mindful of.
First of all, fantastic work on the project. I have been itching to build a new project using constant directivity waveguides for a few months now. I was actually browsing one of the threads over on diyaudio.com (I believe it was horn vs. waveguide thread) when I stumbled upon this gem.
On that note, I have a few questions that may have been answered, but the thread is so massive that it is a little difficult to navigate without links. I have looked over both the standard and premium versions of the design and I have ran into a bit of a problem.
I would like to use the QSC waveguide based on my research. In addition, I want to use a higher sensitivity woofer to bring the overall sensitivity to around 95db 1W/1m, but the cost of the deluxe version is a little difficult to swallow. My original budget is around ~$500, preferably with most of the cabinet materials factored in.
My first plan for reduction is a different choice in woofers. Since this design works because the directivity of the woofer matches the horn at the crossover point, using another 12 inch woofer shouldn't be too much of a problem. After a lot of comparisons I found the best compromise in the Eminence 12A II:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-408&ctab=1#Tabs
It models well in around 1.5-2 cubes sealed fully stuffed and it still has a decent amount of throw at 4.4mm. This brings my cost down to $300 with cabinets each, which is a very reasonable compromise I think.
I read somewhere in the thread that there was a plan to try a different compression driver (perhaps the selenium used in the standard kit?) with the QSC horn. Was this ever tested? If something like that worked, it would bring my cost down further to around $218, which is RIGHT up my alley
What are your thoughts? I don't see anything wrong with changing the woofer, (a slight change in frequency response). However, the change in the compression driver is a bit difficult for me to justify without concrete measurements, which obviously requires me to buy both. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Edit: After more researching I am starting to lean towards the original Selenium, JBL design. The price is very good and though I don't doubt the performance offered by the B&C/QSC combination, I do I have a budget I need to be mindful of.
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I have not yet gotten to testing the D220ti on the QSC waveguide, as the "Deluxe" is not yet wrapped up. I now have a pair of 3012HO to try, and am evaluating the suggested addition of an inductor to the first order highpass to protect the driver at higher SPLs.
Conceptually, EconoWave is a high-frequency module, and what you propose is high on the list for verification, amounting primarily to substitution of a QSC waveguide for the JBL PT plus whatever is required in the way of crossover modifications.
I'm not seeing anything in the Beta 12A-II to suggest that it would not be a good choice. Use the high-efficiency variant of the eWave crossover.... :yes:
Conceptually, EconoWave is a high-frequency module, and what you propose is high on the list for verification, amounting primarily to substitution of a QSC waveguide for the JBL PT plus whatever is required in the way of crossover modifications.
I'm not seeing anything in the Beta 12A-II to suggest that it would not be a good choice. Use the high-efficiency variant of the eWave crossover.... :yes:
Thank you for your response! The wedge cabinets at PE make this an even easier build than I have ever would imagined. I always find myself a little short on time for woodworking
lico
Super Member
Am curious from those what have built/heard the QSC/DE250 combo and new deluxe design if it is better than the original JBL PT waveguide and DE250 w/bolt on adapter. I have a set of QSC WGs I'd like to play with someday.... but what's the real benefit in using the QSC over the original JBL Ewave waveguide?
To me, the best bang for the buck was swapping in a DE250 compression driver, vs. the Selenium, on the original JBL PT. I think that is still an affordable option with an old set of speakers, vs. building new trap cabs w/new woofs. Then again, I am probably missing something on the response curve, my hearing is suspect according to my wife
To me, the best bang for the buck was swapping in a DE250 compression driver, vs. the Selenium, on the original JBL PT. I think that is still an affordable option with an old set of speakers, vs. building new trap cabs w/new woofs. Then again, I am probably missing something on the response curve, my hearing is suspect according to my wife
donprice
Wound up workin' at a gas station....
With just a little bit of planning you can leave room to install the HF upgrade later. Or no planning and just replace the front baffle board.
Russellc
Addicted Member
Am curious from those what have built/heard the QSC/DE250 combo and new deluxe design if it is better than the original JBL PT waveguide and DE250 w/bolt on adapter. I have a set of QSC WGs I'd like to play with someday.... but what's the real benefit in using the QSC over the original JBL Ewave waveguide?
To me, the best bang for the buck was swapping in a DE250 compression driver, vs. the Selenium, on the original JBL PT. I think that is still an affordable option with an old set of speakers, vs. building new trap cabs w/new woofs. Then again, I am probably missing something on the response curve, my hearing is suspect according to my wife
The bolt on adapter when combined with DE 250 caused response problems.
The QSC, being a bolt on, negated this problem. Several of us saw Brandon over on another forum build "No Quarter" using that guide. A few of us bought the guide and started using it, mushroomed into what it is now.
Russellc
Yes, mate the 4-Ohm lowpass in the parts list with the high-efficiency variant of the highpass:Hey Zilch,
Is there a HE crossover for use with a 4 ohm woofer/s
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1856214#post1856214
4343
Super Member
Mix-N-Match!
Just what I've done here with my 4 ohm CVWave. EDIT/ Well, aside from the High Efficiency thing... /EDIT
Just finished my 16 ohm "D-130's"*. Floor monitor wedges now have Selinium d-220Ti on 6X6 waveguide. The standard EW XO is switchable for Hi or Lo sensitivity (plus an OFF position for use as a guitar cab, JIC), using high wattage resistors and 100W L-Pad. Just subbed in the 16 ohm Low Pass components and it's good to go. (It used to be common to run 4 16 ohm monitors off one amp that could handle a 4 ohm load and having the 8 ohm tweeter in these could cause problems if I tried that, but I don't need to run so many these days...)
Been listening to them all morning, and I have to say, the 6X6 is really nice with a 130/2220B! The smaller WG makes the CC distance a little less than 11". Rear Mounting the 15" could get it a little closer, but it's not possible in these boxes.
*(I discovered that one is actually a 2220B. I had the 130 re-coned to "match" years ago and seem to have forgotten, so they do seem to be very similar!)
Just what I've done here with my 4 ohm CVWave. EDIT/ Well, aside from the High Efficiency thing... /EDIT
Just finished my 16 ohm "D-130's"*. Floor monitor wedges now have Selinium d-220Ti on 6X6 waveguide. The standard EW XO is switchable for Hi or Lo sensitivity (plus an OFF position for use as a guitar cab, JIC), using high wattage resistors and 100W L-Pad. Just subbed in the 16 ohm Low Pass components and it's good to go. (It used to be common to run 4 16 ohm monitors off one amp that could handle a 4 ohm load and having the 8 ohm tweeter in these could cause problems if I tried that, but I don't need to run so many these days...)
Been listening to them all morning, and I have to say, the 6X6 is really nice with a 130/2220B! The smaller WG makes the CC distance a little less than 11". Rear Mounting the 15" could get it a little closer, but it's not possible in these boxes.
*(I discovered that one is actually a 2220B. I had the 130 re-coned to "match" years ago and seem to have forgotten, so they do seem to be very similar!)
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NEO Dan
New Member
Thanks Zilch,
I think I'm going to give it a crack with the 1.5mH air core I've got in stock in the L2 spot. Is that appropriate component to adjust for BSC?