Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
rage
Well-Known Member
Yesterday while recovering from the a bug and having the day off I semi-finished closing up my barzilay cabs.
After getting them closed up I measured again and got totally different measurements. Pretty steep drop off in the HF and it looks like I am running very little compensation. Maybe I had some cancellation before, maybe I did something wrong...not sure.
At any rate tonight I will do some more measuring and will add some compensation to the top end and see what I get.
I tuned the Barzilay cabs to 30hz. They measured 4.87 cu ft internal dimensions. I'm running 2 3" x 7.5" ports.
At low levels they sound great. Crank it and the cabinets rattle like crazy! Much more bracing needs to be done, particularly from the front to back baffles. I have already implemented the side to side brace with l-brackets.
I think I can hear and see what similost refers to by "BMS drivers are very forward."
I also now know I was full of **** when I said I could hear the peak at 18k!!
Going to look into the BMS thread and look at what you did with the crossover there Zilch.. if you feel inclined post about what you did, although for the most part I think you mostly used Model 19 crossover.
After getting them closed up I measured again and got totally different measurements. Pretty steep drop off in the HF and it looks like I am running very little compensation. Maybe I had some cancellation before, maybe I did something wrong...not sure.
At any rate tonight I will do some more measuring and will add some compensation to the top end and see what I get.
I tuned the Barzilay cabs to 30hz. They measured 4.87 cu ft internal dimensions. I'm running 2 3" x 7.5" ports.
At low levels they sound great. Crank it and the cabinets rattle like crazy! Much more bracing needs to be done, particularly from the front to back baffles. I have already implemented the side to side brace with l-brackets.
I think I can hear and see what similost refers to by "BMS drivers are very forward."
I also now know I was full of **** when I said I could hear the peak at 18k!!
Going to look into the BMS thread and look at what you did with the crossover there Zilch.. if you feel inclined post about what you did, although for the most part I think you mostly used Model 19 crossover.
Duffinator
Spin The Black Circle
Did you use weather stripping when mounting both the front and rear baffles? Anything that is screwed to the cabinets should have weather stripping between the cabinet and item including speaker terminals and L-Pads plates. Several members have listened to my speakers and there's no rattling going on in my cabinets.
I do plan on adding proper bracing to mine in the next few weeks.
similost
Rockin and Rollin....
Seems everyone else has rattle problems but I sure don't. When I installed the front baffle I put in the grill, then the baffle with the box laying on it's face, then pressed down on the baffle as I drilled the screw holes to fasten it... nice and solid, no rattles, and I didn't brace the sides either...
The only reason I feel the BMS drivers are too forward, is because they are more efficient than the woofers, so they tend to play just a hair louder is my thoughts and feelings about it. About the only fix I can think of is bi-amp with less power making it to them..
The only reason I feel the BMS drivers are too forward, is because they are more efficient than the woofers, so they tend to play just a hair louder is my thoughts and feelings about it. About the only fix I can think of is bi-amp with less power making it to them..
rage
Well-Known Member
I used weather stripping on the backs but not the fronts. I'll pull them back apart this weekend and weatherstrip the fronts along with adding a front to rear brace.
In reading the BMS thread I see there are a few different filter options. I may give those a shot.
I'm going to try and stay with Wayne's attenuation chart and just increase the compensation cap first and see what that gets me.
I really need to take my crossover skills up another notch here soon. Time to buy a book or two.
In reading the BMS thread I see there are a few different filter options. I may give those a shot.
I'm going to try and stay with Wayne's attenuation chart and just increase the compensation cap first and see what that gets me.
I really need to take my crossover skills up another notch here soon. Time to buy a book or two.
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Hahaha. I can't hear the spike either.
I am running 4550s/thread adapter/EWaveguide active in one of the setups at work. The midrange is not forward in that system. It's flat and smooth in the midrange. And not "fizzy" in the high end. I really like it.
I use active EQ there to achieve compensation.
I would like to come up with a Parham-type compensator for the BMS on a passive crossover, if I ever get the skills and time.
This is designed by Zilch and I have used it and it works great for the BMS 4550/4552ND on a passive x-o. The .47/.13mH/4Ohm are the series notch spike filter. The rest is a parallel tank trap compensator. I have run it without the notch.
Last edited:
rage
Well-Known Member
bms thread:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143723&page=7
thanks for the schematic above skywave!
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=143723&page=7
thanks for the schematic above skywave!
von.ah
Schultze!
I've decided to take a crack at using some other woofers in my L56 cabs.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-245
These Peerless woofers (mentioned earlier in the thread) look awful nice for the price. Dare I say, fancy.
I also opened up the one 210ti to see if rotating the diaphragm would help its apparent ~4000 Hz valley. Low and behold, there was some schmutz (unidentified basement particulate matter) hanging around in the diaphragm that I removed, and I *think* that may have fixed the 4k drop. There is a little tab that fits in a hole in the magnet of the driver to prevent the diaphragm from being mounted another way, so I left that alone for now...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-245
These Peerless woofers (mentioned earlier in the thread) look awful nice for the price. Dare I say, fancy.
I also opened up the one 210ti to see if rotating the diaphragm would help its apparent ~4000 Hz valley. Low and behold, there was some schmutz (unidentified basement particulate matter) hanging around in the diaphragm that I removed, and I *think* that may have fixed the 4k drop. There is a little tab that fits in a hole in the magnet of the driver to prevent the diaphragm from being mounted another way, so I left that alone for now...
I'm excited now, I just placed my parts order to build myself a pair of Ewaves!
I'm going with the standard Pyle/220ti HF setup and I'm going to try out some Eminence Beta 12A-II for the woofers.
I'm going to build some cabinets for them styled after the Klipsch Cornwall II only with a narrower baffle since I'm shooting for around 4.75cf and the Cornwalls are over 6cf. Should be good for a 43hz F3. They are going into my 2 channel music only setup so I should be happy without a sub
I'm going with the standard Pyle/220ti HF setup and I'm going to try out some Eminence Beta 12A-II for the woofers.
I'm going to build some cabinets for them styled after the Klipsch Cornwall II only with a narrower baffle since I'm shooting for around 4.75cf and the Cornwalls are over 6cf. Should be good for a 43hz F3. They are going into my 2 channel music only setup so I should be happy without a sub
Schumacher ®
New Member
I've decided to take a crack at using some other woofers in my L56 cabs.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-245
These Peerless woofers (mentioned earlier in the thread) look awful nice for the price. Dare I say, fancy.
I also opened up the one 210ti to see if rotating the diaphragm would help its apparent ~4000 Hz valley. Low and behold, there was some schmutz (unidentified basement particulate matter) hanging around in the diaphragm that I removed, and I *think* that may have fixed the 4k drop. There is a little tab that fits in a hole in the magnet of the driver to prevent the diaphragm from being mounted another way, so I left that alone for now...
This is another worth consideration. Decent sensitivity, and will be able to dig DEEEP.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=147&products_id=8304
similost
Rockin and Rollin....
This is another worth consideration. Decent sensitivity, and will be able to dig DEEEP.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=147&products_id=8304
Looks like the problem with this driver is it only is listed up to 1000hz.. seems kind of low for a wave project since most of those need the woofer to ply up to 1600hz...
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1729569#post1729569
Put L-pads on the BMS drivers. Start with a variable one to dial in the desired amount of attenuation, remove it, measure the resistances at that setting, and build a fixed one using the closest standard values.
Those installing BMS in actual Model 19s found that ~6 dB or more of additional attenuation was required for the crossover to operate in its "optimal" zone with BMS drivers, due to their higher sensitivity....
rage
Well-Known Member
I should probably stop building these things in the process of getting a buzz on.
I had the woofer cap at the input side of the LF section rather than on the woofer side. This was screwing up the HF section and the reason I got the strange measurements last night.
I did some playing around on lunch. Removed the cap and inductor and got pretty good results running the woofer wide open. Plenty of experimenting left. Going to build that small tank circuit for the peak later on.
Definitely was crossing too low with the 1.5mh inductor on the LF section. Appears Wayne's chart works with the BMS driver also. Maybe flatter without the screw on to bolt on adapter?
The crossover consists of a c1 5uf , R1 47ohm, r2 12ohm, c2 .33uf on the HF and the woofer runs wide open.
Attachments are:
left off axis, left on axis, right off axis, right on axis
I had the woofer cap at the input side of the LF section rather than on the woofer side. This was screwing up the HF section and the reason I got the strange measurements last night.
I did some playing around on lunch. Removed the cap and inductor and got pretty good results running the woofer wide open. Plenty of experimenting left. Going to build that small tank circuit for the peak later on.
Definitely was crossing too low with the 1.5mh inductor on the LF section. Appears Wayne's chart works with the BMS driver also. Maybe flatter without the screw on to bolt on adapter?
The crossover consists of a c1 5uf , R1 47ohm, r2 12ohm, c2 .33uf on the HF and the woofer runs wide open.
Attachments are:
left off axis, left on axis, right off axis, right on axis
Attachments
von.ah
Schultze!
I'm honored you quoted me, Shumacher, but you and similost are working with things way beyond my meager budget. I'm still surfing the Econo section of these waves.
Nevertheless, I'm excited about the new woofers.
OT, I've been thinking someone artsy should mock up an Econowave logo that resembles the old, scripty Ford Econoline emblem. I think that would be sweet. :thmbsp:
Nevertheless, I'm excited about the new woofers.
OT, I've been thinking someone artsy should mock up an Econowave logo that resembles the old, scripty Ford Econoline emblem. I think that would be sweet. :thmbsp:
NEO Dan
New Member
I'm honored you quoted me, Shumacher, but you and similost are working with things way beyond my meager budget. I'm still surfing the Econo section of these waves.
Nevertheless, I'm excited about the new woofers.
OT, I've been thinking someone artsy should mock up an Econowave logo that resembles the old, scripty Ford Econoline emblem. I think that would be sweet. :thmbsp:
I want that logo for my EconoLines
Schumacher ®
New Member
This is another worth consideration. Decent sensitivity, and will be able to dig DEEEP.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=147&products_id=8304
Looks like the problem with this driver is it only is listed up to 1000hz.. seems kind of low for a wave project since most of those need the woofer to ply up to 1600hz...
If you look at the response plots, they should reach a 1500Hz cross.
von.ah
Schultze!
I want that logo for my EconoLines
Progress Report! Those are the awesomeness, Dan. :thmbsp:
similost
Rockin and Rollin....
I kind of understand what you're saying Zilch, but then again I'm lost about what you are trying to tell me to do....
I've got your M19 crossovers on it with dual L-pads on each crossover... so you're saying I need more than that?