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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

skywave-rider said:
...Are you using those with a sub?
Beautiful!
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Yes, I am using a 10" Epos powered sub. The Delite 10 doesn't go very low with it's small sealed cabinet and 10" Eminence. Mids and highs are real nice though. I like opera, occasionally at life-like levels, and these things will go crazy-loud. And with the waveguides there is not a bad seat in the house.

Thanks for the kind words everyone. This was really my first attempt at speaker building and now I'm hooked. Already looking for a new project,,, That ZilchLab JBL EconoWave High Power Pro over at PE Techtalk looks real interesting...

Zilch said:
With the first EconoWave Delite 10 project build, Winkun is "Official AK E'Waver" #100!
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It's an honor to be on the list!
 
It does much better in 1.6 cubes tuned to 53hz though. Here's some comparisons. I've used the 2510 in several projects and have been amazed as to what it can do for a pro driver. Personally i find better suited for midrange duties.....keeps excursion to a minimum and the midrange as pristine as possible but hey...that's just me.

VBResponseEminenceDeltalight10ported.gif


and this....

CBResponseEminenceDeltalight10sealed.gif


In the sealed option, the system could be 'blended' instead of crossed to a sub, left to run fullrange so to speak. I've done this ala Gedded with excellent results. I use a higher Q of .7 though (23liters) to control cone excursion and as close to a 2nd order acoustic slope as possible.
 
mayhem13 said:
It does much better in 1.6 cubes tuned to 53hz though.
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Yep, that sounded like a shoe-in for the PE Trap cabinets. They're about 1.8 cubic feet in stock trim. Once you brace things and subtract away the volume of the horn and driver, it's definitely in the right ballpark.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
winkun said:
This was really my first attempt at speaker building and now I'm hooked. Already looking for a new project ... that ZilchLab JBL EconoWave High Power Pro over at PE Techtalk looks real interesting....
Click to expand...
I'll be posting the final summary on that one in the next couple of days.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
I'll be posting the final summary on that one in the next couple of days.... :yes:
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Another option would be to do a project with the parts out of my thrift store $30 Altecs,,, Ideas anyone?

Edit: AFAIK 804A compression driver, 811B sectoral horn, 414Z woofers. Cabinets would make great shipping crates for my Ewave Delite 10s.
 

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I'm doing a 414 EconoWave next; not sure if mine are Zs 'til I measure them. The highs will be BMS 4555 on the 1.5" throat version of the eWaveguide I've used in eWave HP, a proven "premium" combination. Haven't tried it yet, but the 1" BMS 4550 or 4552nd would likely play beautifully on the QSC 152i for another variant of Deluxe or Delite 12, as well.

We know how to "fix" Carmels, also, both the low and high end -- new 902-8A (if you want to stay Altec) or 1" BMS HF driver on those 811B horns, Z19 crossover, and "0.5" operation of the woofer pair.... :yes:
 
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Whoah!!!

Zilch said:
I'm doing a 414 EconoWave next; not sure if mine are Zs 'til I measure them. The highs will be BMS 4555 on the 1.5" throat version of the eWaveguide I've used in eWave HP, a proven "premium" combination. Haven't tried it yet, but the 1" BMS 4550 or 4552nd would likely play beautifully on the QSC 152i for another variant of Deluxe or Delite 12, as well.

We know how to "fix" Carmels, also, both the low and high end -- new 902-8A (if you want to stay Altec) or 1" BMS HF driver on those 811B horns, Z19 crossover, and "0.5" operation of the woofer pair.... :yes:
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Yep! Go to the first page and hit the link in the first post titled "member projects" or something like that. You can click on all the past projects.
 
Generally speaking...what is the advantage of using a high efficiency "pro" style woofer as opposed to modding an old speaker and using the vintage woofer, as is being done with AR, Advent, etc.? The obvious answer is the efficiency, but I'm trying to figure out what advantages there are to the "sound" or the end result. I was intially heading down the path of building something along the lines of the Delite 10...but saw that the Spitwad (vintage woofer) produced an excellent results as well...what are the advantages or disadvantages of each?
 
kcburnes said:
Generally speaking...what is the advantage of using a high efficiency "pro" style woofer as opposed to modding an old speaker and using the vintage woofer, as is being done with AR, Advent, etc.? The obvious answer is the efficiency, but I'm trying to figure out what advantages there are to the "sound" or the end result. I was intially heading down the path of building something along the lines of the Delite 10...but saw that the Spitwad (vintage woofer) produced an excellent results as well...what are the advantages or disadvantages of each?
Click to expand...

As you have noted the effientcy is typical better with pro type woofers as they need to broadcast their sound to large crowds, large rooms and the like. As you might have guessed you will probably sacrificing fedelity or sound quality and in most cases low end extention. While a Dayton Delta Pro 10" may have a low end of 40 hz or so, an equivelant size Dayton Series II may have better low end extention of say 28hz or so! They will probably have differant SPL levels and actually sound differant, one much smoother and deeper the other much louder.

They will probably have differant power ratinging as well. The Pro model have high heat treated, larger, Kapton voice coils, the other no so much. The cone material may be differant, etc. That is why if you use a pro audio woofer you will more than likely use a quality sub to augment the low end product to get that 20~40hz ultra low end..

Hope this help you.
DC
 
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SpitWad is worthy, but it's not going to rock the house. The vintage extended-bass woofers have just as nice bass with eWave high end as they did in the originals but they can't deliver any higher SPL.

EconoWave is 2-way, but if we stretch that a bit and augment the bass with one or multiple subs and use a midbass driver as woofer, the midrange is less compromised, and the full efficiency, clarity, and dynamics of compression driver high frequencies is available for exploitation.

AS, for example, in Home Theater, which already includes subwoofage, to meet the SPL requirements of reference level.

AS, for example, in Sound Reinforcement, where constant-directivity mid/high boxes are standard fare.

AS, for example.... :)
 
dc270 said:
As you have noted the effientcy is typical better with pro type woofers as they need to broadcast their sound to large crowds, large rooms and the like. As you might have guessed you will probably sacrificing fedelity or sound quality and in most cases low end extention. While a Dayton Delta Pro 10" may have a low end of 40 hz or so, an equivelant size Dayton Series II may have better low end extention of say 28hz or so! They will probably have differant SPL levels and actually sound differant, one much smoother and deeper the other much louder.
DC
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What combination of 10" or 12" woofer and Selenium driver/waveguide gives the best performance without sacrificing sound quality?

And, is the quality good enough to be described as audiophile sound? Thanks!
 
You should consider you purpose of build. if you plan to use proaudio drivers they can offer that puchier, live sound that lends itself to blend with a horn better, but needing a sub woofer to capture the lower octaves.

If you want an extended bass sound you will have to give up some effientccy and that live, punchier sound. Trick here is fiding a woofer that is good at both ends, as you will need to ctoss over near 1.2k or higher. There are some Ewave builds here that sponsor the 10", 12" and even 14" & 15" home audio drivers. I know the LE 14a is a good woofer to use in this design. Look in the Ewave index for others.

As for the sound being "audiophile" I consider that subjective at best. I personally think the LE14a with the QSC/Selenium Driver combination to sound pretty darn good!
DC
 
dc270 said:
As you have noted the effientcy is typical better with pro type woofers as they need to broadcast their sound to large crowds, large rooms and the like. As you might have guessed you will probably sacrificing fedelity or sound quality and in most cases low end extention. While a Dayton Delta Pro 10" may have a low end of 40 hz or so, an equivelant size Dayton Series II may have better low end extention of say 28hz or so! They will probably have differant SPL levels and actually sound differant, one much smoother and deeper the other much louder.

They will probably have differant power ratinging as well. The Pro model have high heat treated, larger, Kapton voice coils, the other no so much. The cone material may be differant, etc. That is why if you use a pro audio woofer you will more than likely use a quality sub to augment the low end product to get that 20~40hz ultra low end..

Hope this help you.
DC
Click to expand...

This is a common misconception. A well chosen pro driver needn't have a rough top end or sacrifice fidelity. The high sensitivity in and of itself is a significant advantage. Compare dollar for dollar for a given driver size- you won't find inexpensive 12"s and 15"s from DST, and the pro woofers price comparable to the models they (or other "hifi" producers) offer tend to be of a very high quality.

Look at the JBL 2226h for a good example. Expensive but it has an advanced motor with a shorting ring and an extensively shaped pole (to ensure saturation) as well as excellent venting and a very usable response profile without nasty breakup. There's some roughness at the top end but it's to be expected in the size, and is easily controlled.
 
I just got all the parts for the L220 Ewave xovers and remember something about a couple of jumpers on the xovers boards but for the life of me can't remember where they go. Or maybe it was something else I'm thinking of.
 
There are three jumpers on the EconoWave PC board, fully documented in the supplied assembly instructions. Leaving out J1 and J2 sets them up for biwire/biamp. J3 provides an insert location for developmental use, and should be installed for normal operation of the crossover....
 
Zilch said:
I'm doing a 414 EconoWave next; not sure if mine are Zs 'til I measure them. The highs will be BMS 4555 on the 1.5" throat version of the eWaveguide I've used in eWave HP, a proven "premium" combination. Haven't tried it yet, but the 1" BMS 4550 or 4552nd would likely play beautifully on the QSC 152i for another variant of Deluxe or Delite 12, as well.

We know how to "fix" Carmels, also, both the low and high end -- new 902-8A (if you want to stay Altec) or 1" BMS HF driver on those 811B horns, Z19 crossover, and "0.5" operation of the woofer pair.... :yes:
Click to expand...

I'm not a big fan of the Carmels. They sound okay, but the darn box is just too big and heavy. I nearly get a hernia every time I move the things. And they look,,, uhhhh,,, ugly. Really ugly. So I think that the bits and pieces will become ewave fodder or maybe ebay fodder, sad to say. Stop me if you think I'm making a big mistake (I'm kinda new at all this and more than willing to listen and learn).

And please let us know which variant of the Altec 414 12" you are planning for the Vintage Altec Project. I think my 414Z are 16 ohm. Is the 414A the same?
 
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