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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Andyman said:
BSC???
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Baffle Step Compensation. It's a simple shelving filter.

http://trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm

If my calcs are correct, you need to knock down that peak at 400-500 Hz. A notch may be a better approach, but I'm not there to measure and try it. Apply some EQ in that region to test out the hypothesis.

Andyman said:
Dave, FWIW, I WAS wondering if my 811B comment was functional heresy in this thread too :D
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I have every confidence in your ability to ultimately arrive at the correct decision.... :p:
 
Thanks for the info!! It looks like once again the basic process here is to "increase" the bass by smoothing the curves back to flat ie. a 6 dB loss of over exuberant mids functionally produces a 6 dB bass increase

And thanks for linking me up with another 59 page thread to sort through :lmao:
 
Andyman said:
Thanks for the info!! It looks like once again the basic process here is to "increase" the bass by smoothing the curves back to flat ie. a 6 dB loss of over exuberant mids functionally produces a 6 dB bass increase.
Click to expand...
Yes. E'Wave fixes the HF. You also need to do it in the LF, again, if the T/S parameters I had available for my calcs are correct.

The most comprehensive way to test the thesis is to stick a 2235H in there in place of the 416Z. Alas, then there's nothing Altec left but the Val box.... :pity:

Andyman said:
And thanks for linking me up with another 59 page thread to sort through :lmao:
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If nothing else, the Zilchster is most "wordy." ;)

You'll see: "Been here, done that...." :yes:
 
I've been back an forth with Andy on this as well. My pondering was is there really a "good"
reason to keep the Altec woofer, horn or driver? Well we both do like the sounds the woofer
does produce but the low bass leaves a lot to be desired, the HF driver to me has nothing on
the D210 so those can go, if the 811 with a D210 on it can reach up there an "reasonably" flat
then yah I like the looks of the horn as well compaired to the waveguide and they can stay.

So for me it's sell the HF Altec driver, build a xover to try an get the D210 to play nice on 811
if that works then keep the 811 an use the waveguide somewhere else if not sell the 811's to. (or buy BMS drivers ?)
Now the woofer, many swear by the beautiful sounds it does produce and if you sell them is
there a pair of drivers to buy with that cash that would truly sound as good an perform better?

That's basically the predicament Andy is in, and I see it as a valid one. No slight on the Ewave,
but more like what to do with these Altec parts on hand and how to make the best of them, the
wave can be done to some other drivers/cabs of Andy's stable if not used here on this setup now.

-----------------------------

Yah I see what your saying Zilch about shelving back the upper end of the Altec woofer which will
drop it's sensitivity to meet the wave easier while evening out the bass response, as it stands now
he has the 95db woofer Econo xover in the system an with the L-pad turned up all the way we still
want a touch more output, so it's either make some adjustments to the Econo xover to pad output
on the tweeter a little less or sensitivity on the woofer needs to come down just a tad.
 
It's all so much easier if we can measure. You've got the 416Z in a closed box right now, and would know in 30 seconds what's going on with it from a slam-dunk nearfield measurement.

With respect to how 416Zs sound, frankly, I do not recall, other than that in Vals, as you guys observe, they lack extended bass. They were on the test stand here side by side with the selection of JBL woofers with which you all are familiar from the photos of ZilchLab posted in these forums. We did a direct comparison with 2235H in 4507, which was so convincing that Steve acquired 2235Hs and installed them in his Vals. I've not heard that combination myself; I can only rely on what he has reported: "We have BASS!"

How many times have we heard it here, "I LOVE that Altec sound; the midrange is WONDERFUL!!" Well, fact is, examined in detail, that's ALL they are playing, which is fine, if that's all we want. Once we get them normalized and balanced in a system, however, we soon discover they're not all that. Not 806s, not 802s, not 902s, not 811Bs, and not 511As, either. I am reminded of Sealy's recent gushing appraisal of an Atlas paging horn's reproduction of violins.

So, now we are looking harder at 416Z in Valencia. There are plenty here who'll step forward to inform us that their bass is not lacking in any way. There are others who only run them with loudness compensation continuously engaged in order to achieve adequate bass response. They may also require boundary reinforcement to "bloom" at the bottom end.

It may well be that their midbass response is better than that of true extended-bass woofers such as 2235H or the 411 Gordon suggests, or even the 416B/C Altec used at a higher crossover frequency in Model 19. (Why'd they do that?) There's no way of knowing any of this until we are first assured that they are playing flat. Otherwise, it's not apples and apples, and I'm raising the question, both rhetorically and factually, if what we particularly "like" about how 416Zs sound isn't anything more than an artificial illusion also derived of boosted midrange. THAT, after all, was what Voice of the Theater was "about." Maybe Dave'll get us the answer here soon.... :yes:
 
I am going out of town tomorrow and will be back Wednesday. I have all the parts for the crossover (thanks Ross) and by the time I get back, the replacement passive radiator should be here. So, by the week after next I hope to have my ESS EWGs done. The wood on the cabs is in great shape and I think I will clear coat them and find a good looking sheer black grill cloth and redo the grills. They should be really share looking and sound great as well. Cheers.
 
Very cool DJ! I'll have to check them out when there done!

------------------------

Hey one other thought just popped into my head on Andy's system rebuild, how about
add in another 16 ohm woofer in with the Altec woofer to augment the bass extension?
 
Kegger said:
So for me it's sell the HF Altec driver, build a xover to try an get the D210 to play nice on 811.
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http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1670196#post1670196

Page back for info on other drivers.

Regarding a supplemental supertweeter, Jackgiff, Skywave, and I have all tried integrating tweeters with 811s, and all concluded that two-way using compression drivers capable of extended VHF response provided the superior result.

That said, look again here:

attachment.php

If you want that extra bit of "air," you now have baffle space to install one and cross in the VHF region, 10 kHz or above, obviating many of those driver integration issues.... :yes:
 
djnagle said:
I am going out of town tomorrow and will be back Wednesday. I have all the parts for the crossover (thanks Ross) and by the time I get back, the replacement passive radiator should be here. So, by the week after next I hope to have my ESS EWGs done.
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Good show, Dennis! :thmbsp:

[We'll all lean on Ross to get his built in the meantime.... :p: ]
 
Hi Zilch

I got your invite. I guess you were wanting to know more about what can and cannot be measured, or what are the ways peaks and dips form in the first place.

Keith
 
wtpro said:
I got your invite. I guess you were wanting to know more about what can and cannot be measured, or what are the ways peaks and dips form in the first place.
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Hi, Keith!

I'm sure there are plenty of questions about measurement technology here on AK; the issue at hand here presently is the difference in apparent measurement/display resolution between a 1/6 octave RTA, and a 1/6 octave smoothed MLS or TEF display, for example. Clearly, there's much more detail visible in the smoothed MLS or TEF. Is it real?

http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/resolution2.html

What's up with that? Not apples and apples, resolution-wise, obviously.... :dunno:

Note: Please update your profile with a link to your website so that members may access the information there easily.... :yes:
 
Hey Keg, I'll do a Friday night at my place when I get them done. I won't do the wood or grills until this winter. If they sound any better than they do now, without the PR and crossover, I might not even bother finishing my Jensen Imperials for a while. Cheers.
 
New flyer from Parts Express

Just received the new flyer from Parts Express, and noted that the Selenium D210Ti is special priced at $29 until November 4th.

Maybe another reason to jump aboard the EconoWave bandwagon?
 
jackgiff said:
Just received the new flyer from Parts Express, and noted that the Selenium D210Ti is special priced at $29 until November 4th.
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Thanks for the "Heads up," Jack!

AK's E'Wavers are certainly coming up with plenty cool ideas what to build with 'em.... :thmbsp:
 
Zilch said:
Hi, Keith!
I'm sure there are plenty of questions about measurement technology here on AK; the issue at hand here presently is the difference in apparent measurement/display resolution between a 1/6 octave RTA, and a 1/6 octave smoothed MLS or TEF display, for example. Clearly, there's much more detail visible in the smoothed MLS or TEF. Is it real?
Click to expand...
Hm... I think you are boiling this down to asking about the number of displayed points. If for example you begin with 2048 samples and then perform what is known as a sliding box car average, the curve smooths out and has no discernible transitions. Therefor the short answer is yes, at any point on the curve you are looking at the average that extends +/- from that point.

On the other hand, if you start by brick-wall grouping that same data into say 32 points the data average in each group is still valid. However, you cant now go backward and straddle two adjacent bins to produce a bin in the middle without making some kind of compromise. The best you can do is a straight line or a polynomial fit.

Consider this particular case where you have stair steps. If you want to find the average exactly between the two stairs, you would find that half of the data is lumped into the lower step and half in step above. The low and high step would then also contain data from steps that are yet again 1 step further out (you need both ends).

Here is how a box car average works on a sequence of numbers. If you pick every fourth output, you would get your stair step display. If you shift down slightly, and again take every fourth, you get another valid stair step, but the pattern is different.


Input
0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0

Output
0 0 0 0 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 0/4
_ 0 0 0 1 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1/4 <- group N-1
_ _ 0 0 1 1 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2/4
_ _ _ 0 1 1 1 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3/4
_ _ _ _ 1 1 1 1 _ _ _ _ _ _ 4/4
_ _ _ _ _ 1 1 1 1 _ _ _ _ _ 4/4 <- group N
_ _ _ _ _ _ 1 1 1 1 _ _ _ _ 4/4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1 1 1 0 _ _ _ 3/4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1 1 0 0 _ _ 2/4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1 0 0 0 _ 1/4 <- group N+1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 0 0 0 0 0/4

Therefor, if you were to overlay the stair step plot with the smoothed curve, the points should line up. But only in one shifted location. If you could then tune up/down the RTA bins you would see another fit, but again, only if shifted to the correct location :thmbsp:

Keith
 
Thanks, Keith!

I called it a running average. You retain the native horizontal resolution (number of data points, e.g., 2048,) but the vertical (amplitude) at each is an average of those 1/12 octave either side of it to effect 1/6-octave smoothing, then?
 
jackgiff said:
Just received the new flyer from Parts Express, and noted that the Selenium D210Ti is special priced at $29 until November 4th.

Maybe another reason to jump aboard the EconoWave bandwagon?
Click to expand...

Zilch said:
Thanks for the "Heads up," Jack!

AK's E'Wavers are certainly coming up with plenty cool ideas what to build with 'em.... :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

Sale? Now you've got my attention. :thmbsp: I haven't kept up with the thread. What was the concensus on using the 210 instead of the 220? Same compensation network?

I'm slowly closing in on that mythical place known as "caught up".

Ray
 
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