Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[gainphile]

I finished these up about 3 weeks ago. They are the "standard" kit except the cabs are reused RS units running sealed.The more I listen the better I like them. While they are much smoother than the L100t's that are serving as stands for these, they are still a little harsh, for lack of a better term, for my ears. Since I view them as a work in progress this is not meant as criticism. In my view they have a better overall sound than the JBL's or the 901's that they sit in between.


View attachment 241794

I like the size of your loudspeakers. What is the external dimensions of the cabinet?

Thanks.

 

[Mmaxed]

I like the size of your loudspeakers. What is the external dimensions of the cabinet?

Thanks.

25hx14wx11d

They are old Nova 8B cabs.

 

[EarlK]

Skywave,

- Here are some pics from a vintage RCF catalogue ( 1997 ) to help you figure out the bloodlines of your woofers .
- RCF has done a lot of custom design work for EAW over the years . Your woofer might be one such example .

- You can see that the L12P300 has some added venting between the top plate & the basket .

- OTOH, you can see the L12P400K lacks this venting .

- This venting adds depth to the L12P300 woofer . Overall, it's 155 mm deep versus the 125 mm depth of the L12P400K .

Also :
- I think some of your TS measurements are skewed .
- For instance, one doesn't typically employ a rubber surround to obtain a 50 hz Fs.
- Using the standard double roll linen surround will give the designer that figure .
- The upshot is; quite likely your Fs figure is higher than spec. and is caused by some hardening of the rubber surrounds ( or you didn't loosen them up before measuring them ) .
- If those surrounds are loosened up some, the Qts will drop and the Vas will rise / with both figures being closer to the RCF Parameters I've displayed .
- There's likely an automotive rubber product that can help rejuvenate old rubber. I'm just not aware of it .

<> cheers

 

[Rygen]

Thought I would post back up. Since building mine I have ported them, and added some Eminence Alpha 15a that I was originally slating for an open baffle speaker project.

They finally are where I want them, sound is very good and now I finally have something that makes my Avid 102's (which I love) sound muffled. Even had the wife do an a/b test and she says my Valencia E-waves get the win!

Sorry for weak cell phone camera pic...

Now I got to make some grilles. I got the cloth, just need to figure out what I will make the grill frame out of.

Thanks as always to the great members of the forum that help with R&D on this stuff. :thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

Those look very nice, Rygen. It's difficult for many to imagine that an EconoWave load can outperform the original vintage Valencia, but several members have now found that to be so. It's a tossup versus upgrading Vals to Model 19 performance, but if you're starting with empty cabs, the economics, and perhaps the sonic result, as well, clearly favor E-Waving them.... :thmbsp:

 

[skywave-rider]

Earl,
Thank you for the info; I think you got me very close. Even the red "8 Ohm" stickers on the basket are the same. The woofers I have appear to have the rubber single roll surround of the 400K combined with the cone material of the 110K.

I am going to run them with a 30Hz tone for a while and see if that loosens up the figures; then remeasure. I might try Armor All. They have been stored face to face and that would press the surrounds together.

Your post prompted me to rummage through a storage file cab and I found the spec sheet to what became my dumpster bin EWaves, and where those woofers probably came from. Check it out. (Attached.)

Skywave,

- Here are some pics from a vintage RCF catalogue ( 1997 ) to help you figure out the bloodlines of your woofers .
- RCF has done a lot of custom design work for EAW over the years . Your woofer might be one such example .

- You can see that the L12P300 has some added venting between the top plate & the basket .

- OTOH, you can see the L12P400K lacks this venting .

- This venting adds depth to the L12P300 woofer . Overall, it's 155 mm deep versus the 125 mm depth of the L12P400K .

Also :
- I think some of your TS measurements are skewed .
- For instance, one doesn't typically employ a rubber surround to obtain a 50 hz Fs.
- Using the standard double roll linen surround will give the designer that figure .
- The upshot is; quite likely your Fs figure is higher than spec. and is caused by some hardening of the rubber surrounds ( or you didn't loosen them up before measuring them ) .
- If those surrounds are loosened up some, the Qts will drop and the Vas will rise / with both figures being closer to the RCF Parameters I've displayed .
- There's likely an automotive rubber product that can help rejuvenate old rubber. I'm just not aware of it .

<> cheers

 

[Mmaxed]

skywave,
I would not recommend Armor All. It softens rubber for the short term but breaks it down over time. Do a little research on some of the silicone products. I have used some of them with very good results on dried out auto weather stripping. Brings them back to life and keeps them in good shape. When I've tried Armor All they have dried out quickly and deteriorated faster. Sorry I can't give you a certain product. Just can't remember the brands of the ones that really worked well.

 

[skywave-rider]

Mmaxed,
Thanks for the tip. I will look into it.:thmbsp:

 

[EarlK]

Your post prompted me to rummage through a storage file cab and I found the spec sheet to what became my dumpster bin EWaves, and where those woofers probably came from. Check it out

Interesting , thanks ! I remember when these monitors came out .

I didn't realize your monikor was derived from this model .

FYI, it looks like the midrange & tweeter diaphragms are still available ( though the recone kit for the woofer isn't ) .
- See the pdf of the ( partial ) Yorkville parts list .

<> cheers

 

[Dr. Beaker]

Finally got the BeakerLab running and did some preliminary measurements on my original Ewaves with JBL LE10 woofer and Selenium horn driver. I'm using the Dayton mic, M-Audio mobile pre USB, and Holmimpulse. This measurement shows the Lpad range of adjustment. Does it look reasonable? So much to learn with the software, methodology, and analysis.

 

[Zilch]

This measurement shows the Lpad range of adjustment. Does it look reasonable? So much to learn with the software, methodology, and analysis.

Not as flat as we might like to see, but the L-Pad adjustable range between 9:00 and Max is certainly consistent with the design.

Show the two sections measured separately, and my guess is the peak at 2 kHz will be found in the LE10 response.... :yes:

891137/12210=72.9842​

 

[timoteus]

I've been following this thread for quite a while and am very impressed with all the engineering and work that has been done on this project. Thanks zilch and the many other contributors. I'm thinking about building some 'waves in the near future.

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet since I haven't read all 800 pages, but how does the deluxe version compare to the Altec 19? 90% of the performance for 1/2 the price? Would it exceed the 19 in some or all areas?

Also, what if you built a super deluxe version with JBL woofers and compression drivers? The price would be about the same as a used pair of 19s plus the hundreds spent on new horn foam, diaphragms, rebuilt crossovers, and recharging and reconing if need be. How would the two compare?

 

[djnagle]

Finally got the BeakerLab running and did some preliminary measurements on my original Ewaves with JBL LE10 woofer and Selenium horn driver. I'm using the Dayton mic, M-Audio mobile pre USB, and Holmimpulse. This measurement shows the Lpad range of adjustment. Does it look reasonable? So much to learn with the software, methodology, and analysis.

That is a huge dip between 100hz and 300hz. Wonder why that is.

 

[Zilch]

Also, what if you built a super deluxe version with JBL woofers and compression drivers? The price would be about the same as a used pair of 19s plus the hundreds spent on new horn foam, diaphragms, rebuilt crossovers, and recharging and reconing if need be. How would the two compare?

Deluxe beats M19 in many respects, in a far more manageable package -- its modern constant-directivity waveguide technology trumps the vintage sectorals handily. See the 511B polars below; 811B is similar, beaming above 5 kHz and compromising power response. With LF assist, it can also match or better M19 bass, but I'm moving on to do that with a second 3012LF in KDT under it, as a two-module stack.

Recall that all of this began with three years' apprenticeship working exclusively using JBL components. I will tell you that, from a DIY perspective, results from EconoWave designs have proven more satisfying for far less money. Yes, I can get here with JBL, but it takes an order of magnitude more money and skill. Look at HP Pro, for example. Put 2452H-SL in there, and it'll kick E-Wave butt. Several members have built with those, but in context, that's well beyond "mainstream."

 

[Zilch]

That is a huge dip between 100hz and 300hz. Wonder why that is.

That's a room mode in your measurement space. Measure the LF nearfield, and you'll find its not actually there. Moving your mic around at your present distance will reveal the same....

 

[dc270]

I've been following this thread for quite a while and am very impressed with all the engineering and work that has been done on this project. Thanks zilch and the many other contributors. I'm thinking about building some 'waves in the near future.

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet since I haven't read all 800 pages, but how does the deluxe version compare to the Altec 19? 90% of the performance for 1/2 the price? Would it exceed the 19 in some or all areas?

Also, what if you built a super deluxe version with JBL woofers and compression drivers? The price would be about the same as a used pair of 19s plus the hundreds spent on new horn foam, diaphragms, rebuilt crossovers, and recharging and reconing if need be. How would the two compare?

I think I can speak here having done and had both. The 19's are a bit of audio history that not many can be fortunate enough to own- much less modify into an even better product. I owned a pair and modified thm into a much better product with horn foams, Z19 networks, etc. They were very nice- pretty much an "ultimate vintage" speaker by my standards! A very nice show & sound set by any account...........but none the less I yearned for more.

The "Econowave" is a new breed of audio animal. The low end can be very intimdating of the Altec 19's, but in my book there is still nothing that can quite match the overall sonics of the 416 woofer! The vocals and "sweetness" of the 416 alnico is something that just cannot be substituted- so the low/mid end of the ALtec 19 is unmatched in my estimation. HOWEVER- the raw sheer power of other woofers like the JBL 2235 and some of the others contenderts like RCF, EV and otheer sstill make a good argument for the Econowave over the 19's. In my case I am using 400 watt EV DL15x WP woofer with some dust cap treatments done to them to smooth out the 1.2k peakiness.

What makes the Econowave a real 19's killer in my opinion is the horn and driver, and in my speakers the cabinets as well. I used the suggested larger horn lens, IE "Wave Guides" and also used the superb sounding Radian 475PB 1" horn drivers. These offer very good dispersion and sound stage characteristics- perhaps more so than the stock ALtec 811/ 802-8g. I think where I get the edge here is with my cabinetry where I can closely mount the horns & woofers much together for better imaging chracteristics. I also mounted the set of these up higher to ear level and kept the cabinet edges very narrow for improved defraction and updated looks. I also used the improved Z19 crossovers in my design and am now bi-amping my set for yet better sound!

So the Econowave does or can offer better "sound" than the 19's depending on the build you perform. I mean the raw power of wailing 2235's pounding with some B&C drivers chiming in is harn to beat! This takes NOTHING away from the classic Altec 19's depending on what you honestly desire in a set of great sounding speakers. I personally like what both builds come to the table with. The all time classic sound of the 19's certainly have their place as do my "K-9's" Econowave set. I say do both!!

Regretably I will be sending my 19's down the road - but to a dear friend who has wanted a set as much as I did. Now that I have experienced the thrill of ownership it is time to pass the torch to another and let him enjoy them as much as I did- after all is that not what this is audio thing is all about- sharing the experience with others?
DC

 

[Dr. Beaker]

Not as flat as we might like to see, but the L-Pad adjustable range between 9:00 and Max is certainly consistent with the design.

Show the two sections measured separately, and my guess is the peak at 2 kHz will be found in the LE10 response.... :yes:

891137/12210=72.9842​

I'm initially just happy that I got reasonable measurements. I compared it to the attached horn response that was posted way back around page 14 and much of it looks pretty similar. You are probably correct that the 2k hump is being influenced by the woofer response. The low frequency dips are very likely room modes as my BeakerLab is far from an ideal acoustic environment. I'll get measurements of the individual drivers and then start the tuning process.

I will use this as a learning experience as I have another Ewave project in mind. (Hint JBL LE14H-1's and BMS 4555's)

 

[timoteus]

Thanks for the great responses zilch and dc270. While I love my 19s, it sounds like I would be better off building some 'waves over hunting for another pair of M19 to tinker with. Cheaper, equal or better sound, and easier on the back to move around.

Both the two-module stack and 2235/B&C you two have mentioned sound like excellent candidates for a build. :thmbsp:

 

[CraigB]

Nudiewave?

Here's an update on my econowave project. Got some Dayton PA380-8 15" pro drivers to use with my std xos and D220/PH612s. Pic is a mock-up cabinetless to check out, sounded pretty good! Planning a slope-front floorstander to look like a small updated JBL L200B.

 

[Zilch]

Heh!

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