Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
DonQuixote99
just give me some truth
Mark,
I started down this ewave path about two years ago when I bought the Selenium drivers and the JBL waveguides because I wanted a confirmation/experiment with my Altec 9846-8A’s in DIY cabinets.
At one point, I set one of the ewave HF combos on top of one of the Altec’s, swapped the leads, adjusted the balance using some test tones and dropped the tonearm.
This relatively primitive A/B test made the differences’ glaringly obvious. I went ahead and built the crossovers, and continued to notice significant improvements. In the time since I have built 8 pairs, with my current being, JBL 2235’s with the QSC and B&C DE250’s. I have experienced so many unexpected nuances and emotions that I’m hearing some of my favorite music for the first time. The higher the quality of the original (SACD & MFSL) the more significant the improvements.
Does this equal “flatter, broader response”?
I have invested in the Behringer mic and preamp, downloaded the HOLM software and I seem to duplicate the graphs posted by Zilch and others. When compared to my first experiments with my Altecs, I say, YES!
Sell the Valencias and don’t look back.
George
YMMV
I started down this ewave path about two years ago when I bought the Selenium drivers and the JBL waveguides because I wanted a confirmation/experiment with my Altec 9846-8A’s in DIY cabinets.
At one point, I set one of the ewave HF combos on top of one of the Altec’s, swapped the leads, adjusted the balance using some test tones and dropped the tonearm.
This relatively primitive A/B test made the differences’ glaringly obvious. I went ahead and built the crossovers, and continued to notice significant improvements. In the time since I have built 8 pairs, with my current being, JBL 2235’s with the QSC and B&C DE250’s. I have experienced so many unexpected nuances and emotions that I’m hearing some of my favorite music for the first time. The higher the quality of the original (SACD & MFSL) the more significant the improvements.
Does this equal “flatter, broader response”?
I have invested in the Behringer mic and preamp, downloaded the HOLM software and I seem to duplicate the graphs posted by Zilch and others. When compared to my first experiments with my Altecs, I say, YES!
Sell the Valencias and don’t look back.
George
YMMV
Hey George, I apprecite the feedback. I should have sent you an email. Don't know where my head was.
Well, I'll move on then.
I was just messing with winISD. I was getting some ideas on box deimensions and port sizes. Now all I have to do is find the time to get the mdf and have it cut to rough size.
It's the "Magic" of constant directivity -- once you've got it, there's no going back -- and it's fundamental to all EconoWaves from the earliest entry level Selenium D220Ti/PT waveguide throughout the range of subsequent designs.
I'm having particularly great fun building Mini E-Waves right now over on Tech Talk forum:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=219975
The major thread over there now has 15 projects in it, from Minis on up:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536
That's all in addition to the hundreds of builds by others linked from the first post of this (soon to be "Mega") thread here on AK, its home.... :thmbsp:
DonQuixote99
just give me some truth
Woofer Research Report:
From what PE has for sale right now, for my 1.9 cu ft cabinet, it's no contest: the Pioneer A30FU20-52F. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-105
Will be running it sealed; I really need a bigger cabinet to get good performance from a 12" vented design, and the cab is a strong tight box designed for sealed in the first place. Like the freq. resp of 30-2500; like the spl of 95 db (one target amp is a Fisher console pull @35 WPC). They give an optimum sealed vol of 2.03 cu ft, which seems just about right.
Unless I get a line on some really perfect vintage pulls real quick, I'm ordering these guys.
From what PE has for sale right now, for my 1.9 cu ft cabinet, it's no contest: the Pioneer A30FU20-52F. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-105
Will be running it sealed; I really need a bigger cabinet to get good performance from a 12" vented design, and the cab is a strong tight box designed for sealed in the first place. Like the freq. resp of 30-2500; like the spl of 95 db (one target amp is a Fisher console pull @35 WPC). They give an optimum sealed vol of 2.03 cu ft, which seems just about right.
Unless I get a line on some really perfect vintage pulls real quick, I'm ordering these guys.
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srbliss
Active Member
I have
Love it (only one complete so far) JBL 2235H's with 2452H-SL on 50x90 waveguides. Not exactly econo but still in the spirit. The difference in sound is the old night and day thing. Mine will not be getting converted back for resale.
Love it (only one complete so far) JBL 2235H's with 2452H-SL on 50x90 waveguides. Not exactly econo but still in the spirit. The difference in sound is the old night and day thing. Mine will not be getting converted back for resale.
I'm hesitant about that woofer, for this application. Without a FR graph to let us know about the high-frequency response, we have no idea whether that woofer has any nasty break-up modes above 1KHz. It looks to have a straight-sided, hard-paper (not pulped, but pressed paper), non-treated cone, AND a hard paper dustcap... both of which can cause large peaks in the response, which will usually be in the range of 1.5KHz to 2.5KHz or so. That sort of thing may make crossover design a lot more difficult... you have to "notch out" any peaks in the response...
Anyone know of a response graph for this? PE doesn't have one. They have woofer sims, but nothing for response out into the midrange/HF region...
Regards,
Gordon.
DonQuixote99
just give me some truth
I've looked at some graphs for other things, and I'd say you have a big point. Mfgrs. seem to be very willing to quote 'response ranges' that include areas of very non-linear response indeed.
That said, do you like this bargain Goldwood GW-8028 any better? http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-355 No paper cone, no paper dustcap. No graph either, alas....
I have a pair of these to try:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1118
We THINK they're going to behave like JBL 123A/2213H, but I haven't loaded them into anything yet.
Yeah, over-budget, maybe; I got them on sale from PE some time ago....
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1118
We THINK they're going to behave like JBL 123A/2213H, but I haven't loaded them into anything yet.
Yeah, over-budget, maybe; I got them on sale from PE some time ago....
DonQuixote99
just give me some truth
I have a pair of these to try:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1118
We THINK they're going to behave like JBL 123A/2213H, but I haven't loaded them into anything yet.
Yeah, over-budget, maybe; I got them on sale from PE some time ago....
I can always acquire more budget--just have to trade time for it....
Interesting possibility. The woofer building table says it's optimum in a 2.41 cu ft sealed cabinet, so mine is something like 20% small for it. That will hurt bass, and the bass rolls off on this one already.... Still, not a bad graph overall.
There also the Morel MW-266: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-040, an 8" unit, that also graphs relatively well. That one likes my box size, though the budget is only getting worse....
juniorJBL
SUB 1500 :)
Ewave Placement.
Has anyone found what works best with the original ewave?
How big is your room, how far apart are they?
Where is the horn vs listening height?
My room is 20X12. I have mine setup with speakers on the long wall, and am finding that even though my horn is about 30" above the floor, I like the sound of the speaker better with the height where the woofer and horn meet, is at ear level. They get super dynamic then!!
BTW Zilch, these are the 220's on the JBL 6X12" with LE14h-1's and SUB1500's in 3.5 cu ft boxes, with a MC602 for the main power and a pair of Proceed HPA-2's bridged to the subs.
It sounds absolutely killer!! Been doing some moving around of placement and this just seems like the place!
Has anyone found what works best with the original ewave?
How big is your room, how far apart are they?
Where is the horn vs listening height?
My room is 20X12. I have mine setup with speakers on the long wall, and am finding that even though my horn is about 30" above the floor, I like the sound of the speaker better with the height where the woofer and horn meet, is at ear level. They get super dynamic then!!
BTW Zilch, these are the 220's on the JBL 6X12" with LE14h-1's and SUB1500's in 3.5 cu ft boxes, with a MC602 for the main power and a pair of Proceed HPA-2's bridged to the subs.
It sounds absolutely killer!! Been doing some moving around of placement and this just seems like the place!
Where'd ya get them H-1s, dude...?
I'm still mulling over a future Econowave project - still thinking about converting my Klipsch KG 5.5s somehow, but despite looking something like a big Econowave apparently they don't lend themselves to an easy conversion.
As I've been reading, Zilch has stated that the original Econowave was designed as an "entry level" project. Forgive me if this has been already covered earlier in this massive missive, but does a "Statement/Reference" level project exist? If I jump in, I might be interested in using both feet and investing some significant funds if I think I might end up with an incredible speaker at the end of the process.
As I've been reading, Zilch has stated that the original Econowave was designed as an "entry level" project. Forgive me if this has been already covered earlier in this massive missive, but does a "Statement/Reference" level project exist? If I jump in, I might be interested in using both feet and investing some significant funds if I think I might end up with an incredible speaker at the end of the process.