Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[GordonW]

Any thoughts or ideas on the JBL 2225's with the Tannoy Royale cab?

It'll work. Cabinet is about 5.3 cubic feet. Tune to about 41 Hz. Two 4" diameter vents about 4.5" long each, per cabinet. F3 of about 43 Hz.

If you REALLY want to make it "go", recone the 2225s as 2234s or 2235s at some time. 2234 in that enclosure tuned to 37 Hz (two 4" diameter vents, 6.25" long each) goes down to 38 Hz. 2235 in that enclosure tuned to 29 Hz (two 4" vents, 12" long each) goes down to 33 Hz...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Doc Rock]

Finally getting ready to ride the Econowave. Ordered my waveguides and Selenium drivers yesterday. I sent an email to the address listed on the Youtube video for Zilch - hopefully I'll be able to order the crossover boards from him soon. I plan to try setting them on top of my Klipsch KG 5.5s first, then if I'm suitably impressed I'll do a larger cutout in the baffle for the horn (which I'll also have to cut down on the edges to fit on the baffle) and start futzing with adding to the crossover to convert the woofers to a 2.5 configuration. It'll probably be awhile, as I have several other projects going, but I'll plan to post some pics when I'm done, and join the Econowave Army rolls.

I really wrestled with whether to go this direction vs getting upgraded crossovers and Ti tweeters from Bob Crites, but finally decided to go this direction. I hope this is as good as you guys seem to think.

 

[Doc Rock]

Hey I noticed GordonW just posted to an adjacent thread - have you done anything with your "Big Red" Econowaves other than add an inductor to the lower woofer? My KG 5.5s are a dual woofer layout also and I'll need to do some tweaking to get them right.

 

[DonQuixote99]

Say, the Advent Legacy would make a great e-wave, wouldn't it? The 10-inch woofer has some punch, but the tweet could well be improved upon. Stock it goes down to 42 hz and crosses over at 2000 (if the sales copy over at oaktreevintage can be believed....)

BTW, visible to the left is an AVID-101, a speaker I've grown to love a lot. It strikes me that that design was all about dispersing the highs, wasn't it?

 

[GordonW]

Zog666, your final crossover values are kind of interesting to me... as I had done a previous version ("pre-Ewave") of a horn/driver combo with the D210Ti (predecessor to the D220Ti), and wound up with a VERY similar crossover configuration. That notch filter looks very familiar.

I also seem to wind up with that ~2mH/10uf lowpass value combo, with a Zobel, a LOT, using higher-efficiency "pro audio type" woofers (such as the "custom E-wave" woofer recones I do). Looks like that sort of thing works pretty universally, with a lot of Eminence-esque (the cone I use in my recones is a factory Eminence cone) drivers...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[GordonW]

Say, the Advent Legacy would make a great e-wave, wouldn't it? The 10-inch woofer has some punch, but the tweet could well be improved upon. Stock it goes down to 42 hz and crosses over at 2000 (if the sales copy over at oaktreevintage can be believed....)

I'd say so. I'm planning to do just that, with a pair of Advent Maestros (same woofer) here... they came to me with blown mids and missing tweeters. What is a guy to do?

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[roymail]

I'd like to try attaching some tweeters to wave guides but have never done it before. I'd rather do it right the first time, so I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks and Merry Christmas!

 

[Zilch]

Even though mating dome tweeters to waveguides is not mainstream EconoWave, I have encouraged experimentation in this area. Both Zaph and Elliott have documented work in this area with successful outcomes. I believe we understand the requirements more, now. It's a logical upward step with considerable performance benefit, and once DIYers figure out how to make it happen successfully and reliably, the cone/dome design paradigm will be changed in a very positive manner.... :thmbsp:

 

[bwaslo]

I'd say so. I'm planning to do just that, with a pair of Advent Maestros (same woofer) here... they came to me with blown mids and missing tweeters. What is a guy to do?

Regards,
Gordon.

I've done that one, with QSC guide and Selenium CD. Came out really sweet (currently my favorite speakers). Had to make a new baffle, though, the woofer on the Maestros is too far down from the top.

 

[DonQuixote99]

I've done that one, with QSC guide and Selenium CD. Came out really sweet (currently my favorite speakers). Had to make a new baffle, though, the woofer on the Maestros is too far down from the top.

Neat! Is your project described online?

 

[bear-hifi]

Neat! Is your project described online?

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4031176#post4031176

what crossover did he use?

thanks

 

[DonQuixote99]

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4031176#post4031176

what crossover did he use?

thanks

Went looking and found that, but I too am very interested in the crossover. It should work with my Legacies, no?

 

[bwaslo]

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4031176#post4031176

what crossover did he use?

thanks

oops, guess I never put that on the post about these. This is the crossover circuit ("R" means ohms):

It should work for the Legacy too, I'd think (if woofer is the same as in Maestro). I reused inductors from the original crossover (added some inductance to the smaller one to reach the value shown).

I was really surprised how nicely behaved the Advent woofer is, I'd never measured one of them before. Beautiful natural roll-off, no visible breakup in the response, wish all drivers were this nice. This is an on-axis measurement made a few days after they had been refoamed -

Here's the system response (on axis only):

 

[Zilch]

EconoWave TW-0.38

 

[Xtinc]

Hi,
I’ve been contemplating E-waving a pair of Advent 4002s’. I would like to use the existing woofer to keep the price down.

Planned on using the D220TI-8/PH612 combo, but the horn will need to be trimmed to fit the baffle and clear the grill pins. Not sure if the baffle lip will have an undesirable effect.
Would the B&C DE10-1/ME10 combo work better? If yes, will standard crossover work?

I haven’t heard an e-wave or very many horn speakers. I paid $35 for the speakers and I estimate $250 for the E-wave upgrade. Will these perform at a $285 (AK dollars) level. I sold a pair of working AR90s' with six refoamed woofers for less.

Thanks in advance!

 

[rich121]

Curious what is best method to re-attach the crossover/terminal plate onto the inside/back of the NLA Advents?
Do I just hot glue and press onto the back of the speaker?

Thanks...

Rick

 

[Zilch]

Hi,
I’ve been contemplating E-waving a pair of Advent 4002s’. I would like to use the existing woofer to keep the price down.

Planned on using the D220TI-8/PH612 combo, but the horn will need to be trimmed to fit the baffle and clear the grill pins. Not sure if the baffle lip will have an undesirable effect.
Would the B&C DE10-1/ME10 combo work better? If yes, will standard crossover work?

I haven’t heard an e-wave or very many horn speakers. I paid $35 for the speakers and I estimate $250 for the E-wave upgrade. Will these perform at a $285 (AK dollars) level. I sold a pair of working AR90s' with six refoamed woofers for less.

Make the standard EconoWave fit. Click "First" at the top or bottom of any page here to go to the first post of this thread. There, you will find several links showing how others have done this.

The various Large Advent projects have all turned out well, and the result is loudspeakers having stunning performance capabilities well beyond what the original vintage designers could ever have imagined.... :yes:

 

[DonQuixote99]

oops, guess I never put that on the post about these. This is the crossover circuit ("R" means ohms):

It should work for the Legacy too, I'd think (if woofer is the same as in Maestro). I reused inductors from the original crossover (added some inductance to the smaller one to reach the value shown).

I was really surprised how nicely behaved the Advent woofer is, I'd never measured one of them before. Beautiful natural roll-off, no visible breakup in the response, wish all drivers were this nice. This is an on-axis measurement made a few days after they had been refoamed -

Here's the system response (on axis only):

Thanks immensely! One little question--you mention adding inductance. I can see subtracting inductance by taking wire off, but adding strikes me as trickier. How'd you do that?

 

[bwaslo]

Thanks immensely! One little question--you mention adding inductance. I can see subtracting inductance by taking wire off, but adding strikes me as trickier. How'd you do that?

By adding an additional inductor in series with the existing one. Not generally the best way to get a bigger inductor (it gives higher series R than if the inductor is designed as one larger value) but in this case the simulation wanted the highish R anyway.

 

[zog666]

We used air cores where they matter. It's EconoWave -- use inexpensive I-core for the lowpass; the PC board is laid out for them, and accepts all of the available values.

Put in the L-pad -- you won't regret having the capability to dial the HF level up and down without altering the response.

Well as my driver costs are a tad inflated due to shipping prices its not that big a jump to go aircore.. but then again no need to be needlessly extravagent either - so i went cored. My crossover parts order arrived way quicker than expected from Speakerbug in Queensland, so I've laid them out temporarily until I can build them properly on big bits of cardboard with cable ties so I can adjust them.
The difference in evenness and depth of the bass from the Eminence Delta 12LFA is quite impressive, and the level of clarity from having a more even response across the board is amazing. They look nearly the same but it's a whole different speaker.
It's still maybe a bit bright sounding on some music, so yes having the LPAD done properly so I can tune the HF will be handy.

I took some quick indoor measurements @ 1M but havent hauled them outside to do better measurements. I note that my simulation doesn't completely match the calculated response.. though the notch filter might be quite sensitive to component tolerance.. and doesnt include the inductor resistance.

grey - measured response
black - modelled response (using driver response taken in the same session)

I also seem to wind up with that ~2mH/10uf lowpass value combo, with a Zobel, a LOT, using higher-efficiency "pro audio type" woofers (such as the "custom E-wave" woofer recones I do). Looks like that sort of thing works pretty universally, with a lot of Eminence-esque (the cone I use in my recones is a factory Eminence cone) drivers...

One of my starting points was the zobel/1mH/10uF crossover for the Delta 12LF described in Wayne Parhams document, but that didnt work to well with the d220ti in PCW or SpeakerWorkshop. I basicly ended up with the LP values advised by PCW, slightly adjusted, and the recomended Zobel values as well, after working through the Econowave SR Compact HF crossover but nudging the numbers around until the graph looked flatter.