skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Ha, sorry, don't know how I did that. Corrected the post.
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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
@EarlK and all
Anyone have opinions on the SEOS-15 guide? They claim that it will reach 950 Hz but from the
front it looks smallish for a 15" and it is not very deep.
How does it sound?
I'm thinking of trying it with the big Peerless driver that has a low Fs of about 750 Hz:
Anyone have opinions on the SEOS-15 guide? They claim that it will reach 950 Hz but from the
front it looks smallish for a 15" and it is not very deep.
How does it sound?
I'm thinking of trying it with the big Peerless driver that has a low Fs of about 750 Hz:
Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 Ohm
Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 OhmThe Peerless DFM-2544R00-08 1" exit compression driver with 1-3/4" diaphragm is for use in high fidelity professional sound reinforcement systems. Peerless designed the magnet system for high sensitivity while keeping the weight...
www.parts-express.com
I'd be very curious about your opinion on it.@EarlK and all
Anyone have opinions on the SEOS-15 guide? They claim that it will reach 950 Hz but from the
front it looks smallish for a 15" and it is not very deep.
How does it sound?
I'm thinking of trying it with the big Peerless driver that has a low Fs of about 750 Hz:
Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 Ohm
Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 1" Compression DFM Driver 8 OhmThe Peerless DFM-2544R00-08 1" exit compression driver with 1-3/4" diaphragm is for use in high fidelity professional sound reinforcement systems. Peerless designed the magnet system for high sensitivity while keeping the weight...www.parts-express.com
Katalyst posted this link, that features measurements and graphs, etc. https://www.mtg-designs.com/tips-tricks-tests/waveguide-shootout
There is also an 18" available featured on that same page, with measurements.
Very grateful for this JBL M2 waveguide thread. I hope you're enjoying its sound more than most others you've heard. It was recommended to me as being a very good constant directivity horn, and having respectably good vertical and horizontal coverage, presumably better than the JBL 2384. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ons-for-main-horn-speakers.39247/post-1073838 Plus, the M2 has those anti-diffraction "beaks" at the center.
www.diyaudio.com
But what driver? John van Ommen apparently uses the D2. My budget is healthy and this driver is quite affordable. https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-5020810x-d2415k-high-frequency-driver-d2/
But I'm looking for the best HF and MF performance I can afford and so have been wondering about this.
reconingspeakers.com
It would be crossed to my midwoofers, but hopefully low enough to get them out of their higher IM distortion range; please see measurements.
Alternately, I thought of going with a three way by adding
https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/archive/2/8/DCM50
The DCM50 is an often praised 2" midrange driver and where crossing it low enough should keep my midwoofers out of there higher IM distortion range. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
But what horn for that midrange driver? Klipsch K510? If yes, would it's x & y coverage patterns closely match those of the JBL M2?
Would appreciate your thoughts on this plan.
Beaks
Good News! I think I solved the mystery. This one was really bugging me, because there's just NO way that something as subtle as adding some 'beaks' to a waveguide is going to deliver a gain of 10dB. I think it's caused by a combination of things. First off, the entire M2 waveguide, and...
But what driver? John van Ommen apparently uses the D2. My budget is healthy and this driver is quite affordable. https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-5020810x-d2415k-high-frequency-driver-d2/
But I'm looking for the best HF and MF performance I can afford and so have been wondering about this.
Original JBL 2435HPL Driver 125-30001-00X - The Speaker Exchange
Special Order – Lead time is about 1 week
reconingspeakers.com
It would be crossed to my midwoofers, but hopefully low enough to get them out of their higher IM distortion range; please see measurements.
Altec 416-8B in 100L Sealed
In this blog post I test the Altec 416-8B in a 100L sealed enclosure. Testing was done outdoors for the frequency response and then brought indoors for the distortion testing. The woofers are new from Great Planes Audio. A customer has sent me the finished cabinets with drivers to integrate...
josephcrowe.com
Alternately, I thought of going with a three way by adding
https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/archive/2/8/DCM50
The DCM50 is an often praised 2" midrange driver and where crossing it low enough should keep my midwoofers out of there higher IM distortion range. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
But what horn for that midrange driver? Klipsch K510? If yes, would it's x & y coverage patterns closely match those of the JBL M2?
Would appreciate your thoughts on this plan.
Very grateful for this JBL M2 waveguide thread. I hope you're enjoying its sound more than most others you've heard. It was recommended to me as being a very good constant directivity horn, and having respectably good vertical and horizontal coverage, presumably better than the JBL 2384. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ons-for-main-horn-speakers.39247/post-1073838 Plus, the M2 has those anti-diffraction "beaks" at the center.
Beaks
Good News! I think I solved the mystery. This one was really bugging me, because there's just NO way that something as subtle as adding some 'beaks' to a waveguide is going to deliver a gain of 10dB. I think it's caused by a combination of things. First off, the entire M2 waveguide, and...
But what driver? John van Ommen apparently uses the D2. My budget is healthy and this driver is quite affordable. https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-5020810x-d2415k-high-frequency-driver-d2/
But I'm looking for the best HF and MF performance I can afford and so have been wondering about this.
Original JBL 2435HPL Driver 125-30001-00X - The Speaker Exchange
Special Order – Lead time is about 1 week
reconingspeakers.com
It would be crossed to my midwoofers, but hopefully low enough to get them out of their higher IM distortion range; please see measurements.
Altec 416-8B in 100L Sealed
In this blog post I test the Altec 416-8B in a 100L sealed enclosure. Testing was done outdoors for the frequency response and then brought indoors for the distortion testing. The woofers are new from Great Planes Audio. A customer has sent me the finished cabinets with drivers to integrate...
josephcrowe.com
Alternately, I thought of going with a three way by adding
https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/archive/2/8/DCM50
The DCM50 is an often praised 2" midrange driver and where crossing it low enough should keep my midwoofers out of their higher IM distortion range. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
But what horn for that midrange driver? Klipsch K510? If yes, would it's x & y coverage patterns closely match those of the JBL M2?
Would appreciate your thoughts on this plan.
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Hi jkff,
I'm sorry to report that you're in uncharted territory.
Econowave is at its root, a community-designed 2-way speaker championed inspired by the late great Zilch and Jack Gifford's interest in building a "quick and dirty" approximation of the JBL 4430 speaker using relatively inexpensive waveguides and compression drivers paired with various woofers in pursuit of flat frequency response for DIY builders everywhere: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbull...Quick-amp-Dirty-4430-Inspired-Two-Ways-Part-I
Big thanks to Audiokarma for giving this type of sonic exploration and development a home btw.
Builders strive to integrate different LF drivers, waveguides, and compression drivers. However, I'm not sure anyone has built an Econowave with the 416 woofer, JBL M2 waveguide, or DCM50.
EarlK suggested building out Zilch's Z19 crossover back on page 847 here with regard to the larger 15" drivers" : https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...rative-econowave-speaker.150939/post-12624010
Additionally, Zilch did test integration using the Altec 4148-b with the BMS 4552 (great!) on the QSC 152i (No longer available) with a Parts Express BOM however I doubt the 416 will slot directly into this circuit
All of this is to say that your proposed build is not particularly Econo and will require significant research, development, and testing.
If you're looking for the best HF and MF performance in an Econowave build, I definitely recommend pursuing one of the established designs that Zilch documented on the first page of this thread as well as over on the Parts Express page here: https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/34467-flex-your-pcd-mettle otherwise you will have a long road ahead of you!
I'm sorry to report that you're in uncharted territory.
Econowave is at its root, a community-designed 2-way speaker championed inspired by the late great Zilch and Jack Gifford's interest in building a "quick and dirty" approximation of the JBL 4430 speaker using relatively inexpensive waveguides and compression drivers paired with various woofers in pursuit of flat frequency response for DIY builders everywhere: https://www.audioheritage.org/vbull...Quick-amp-Dirty-4430-Inspired-Two-Ways-Part-I
Big thanks to Audiokarma for giving this type of sonic exploration and development a home btw.
Builders strive to integrate different LF drivers, waveguides, and compression drivers. However, I'm not sure anyone has built an Econowave with the 416 woofer, JBL M2 waveguide, or DCM50.
EarlK suggested building out Zilch's Z19 crossover back on page 847 here with regard to the larger 15" drivers" : https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...rative-econowave-speaker.150939/post-12624010
Additionally, Zilch did test integration using the Altec 4148-b with the BMS 4552 (great!) on the QSC 152i (No longer available) with a Parts Express BOM however I doubt the 416 will slot directly into this circuit
All of this is to say that your proposed build is not particularly Econo and will require significant research, development, and testing.
If you're looking for the best HF and MF performance in an Econowave build, I definitely recommend pursuing one of the established designs that Zilch documented on the first page of this thread as well as over on the Parts Express page here: https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/34467-flex-your-pcd-mettle otherwise you will have a long road ahead of you!
Thanks for pointing this out, it is the first time I've seen it even after all the years reading this thread.
Excellent background.
I always thought that post #17 here was the start in March 2008 but that is very interesting background:
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
******** Project Summary: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1856214#post1856214 Member Projects and Acknowledgments: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584 Member Listening Impressions...
audiokarma.org
In post #33 Jackgiff takes a shot at an LE14A based Econowave with the D220Ti and standard JBL horn:
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
******** Project Summary: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1856214#post1856214 Member Projects and Acknowledgments: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584 Member Listening Impressions...
audiokarma.org
This would have been the high efficiency version, then at some point the low efficiency version was done
often with the Large Advent woofer, but of course many others.
It is tempting to have Econo be dirt cheap but if we can come close to the current and very expensive
JBL designs that are $8K and more for say under $2K then I'd still call that Econo in some sense.
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The DIYSG HTM 12V2 kit was a real bargain at $330 each for all the parts. Erin explains that their
intent was to have a HT speaker that could produce reference levels, in a large room with an HT
receiver. Most will have DSP parametric EQ that can be used to fix any speaker response and
room issues. These were not intended to provide deep bass since the people who worked on
the requirements ran multiple subs as would be expected in a HT application.
The SEOS 15 is back and I've been wondering about the performance and just stumbled
onto this review by Erin of the HTM 12V2 which was a DIY Sound Group design that uses
a Celestion CDX1-1742 ($100 special order) driver on the SEOS 15 WG:
More here covering which drivers are used and much more:
www.audiosciencereview.com
Erin likes the WG range of this speaker but not the woofer so much, he takes a guess that
adding more damping material might fix some of the resonances in the mid bass.
A kit for the HT-12 is currently available, even cheaper, but not the same as the HTM with different drivers:
www.cinergyaudio.com
intent was to have a HT speaker that could produce reference levels, in a large room with an HT
receiver. Most will have DSP parametric EQ that can be used to fix any speaker response and
room issues. These were not intended to provide deep bass since the people who worked on
the requirements ran multiple subs as would be expected in a HT application.
The SEOS 15 is back and I've been wondering about the performance and just stumbled
onto this review by Erin of the HTM 12V2 which was a DIY Sound Group design that uses
a Celestion CDX1-1742 ($100 special order) driver on the SEOS 15 WG:
DIYSG HTM-12v2 Review
This is a copy/paste from my site and there may be formatting issues here because of that. You can see the full review on my site. https://erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/diysg_htm12v2/ DIYSG HTM-12v2 Speaker Review Saturday, Jun 12, 2021 Foreword / YouTube Video Review The review on...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Erin likes the WG range of this speaker but not the woofer so much, he takes a guess that
adding more damping material might fix some of the resonances in the mid bass.
A kit for the HT-12 is currently available, even cheaper, but not the same as the HTM with different drivers:
HT-12 Home Theater Speaker Kit with Flat Pack Cabinet
The HT-12 speaker kit works great in large home theater rooms. With a depth of only 9.5 inches they will easily fit behind acoustically transparent screens if needed.
www.cinergyaudio.com
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Anyone have a crossover schematic and parts list for this? Could probably derive it from the pictures here:
www.avsforum.com
I'm just curious since I have no need for this much output in a home setting.
Erin chats with Ryan Bouma designer of the DIYSG 1099, this is old from 2021:
Here's Erin's review of the DIYSG 1099, I'm not sure of the full parts list and I believe
that some are NLA but it is at least interesting to study. I prefer a main speaker that gets
at least, down to 50-60 Hz for a lower XO to the subs:
The side by side mids are to get a more narrow horizontal dispersion as has been discussed
by Geddes. Not sure if I like it.
What do you all think?
DIYSG 1099 Crossover question
i didn’t build these. I’ve always wanted to, but always managed to miss out timing wise them when they were available. But I recently acquired a LCR. I wanted to see if someone who knows could take a look and see if these were built right. Only because the two 5inch seem very quiet compared...
www.avsforum.com
Erin chats with Ryan Bouma designer of the DIYSG 1099, this is old from 2021:
Here's Erin's review of the DIYSG 1099, I'm not sure of the full parts list and I believe
that some are NLA but it is at least interesting to study. I prefer a main speaker that gets
at least, down to 50-60 Hz for a lower XO to the subs:
The side by side mids are to get a more narrow horizontal dispersion as has been discussed
by Geddes. Not sure if I like it.
What do you all think?
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I read about this recently, as a favorite of Ryan Bouma, but have never heard it.
Strange looking and expensive:
IWATA-300:
The directivity pattern is tapered with it beaming at HF, not really CD.
Anyone familiar with it?
Strange looking and expensive:
IWATA-300:
IWATA-300 - Horns by Auto-Tech
(Minimal frequency from 450 Hz) Standard: Colour white glossy, without mouting flange and cut of throat Individual order: Different colours, cut throat on diameter, mounting steel flange PDF
horns-diy.pl
The directivity pattern is tapered with it beaming at HF, not really CD.
Anyone familiar with it?
NEW ADDITION TO THE ECONOWAVE FAMILY
LARGE 3.6 cuft 12" LOW COST GRS WOOFER, LOW COST PRV DRIVER, STANDARD 6x12" WAVEGUIDE:
Thanks to @loaded for building this and reporting back on it.
This was a team effort, thanks to everyone:
XO was simulated by EarlK, many thanks - Has not yet been confirmed with detailed measurements.
Cost for one side, not including wood, wire, etc:
- GRS 12PT-8 $49
- PRV D230ti $29
- JBL Waveguide Clones from Aliexpress $9
- XO $38
- L Pad $15
Total $140 per side
I noted that this woofer will reach low (high 20s to mid 30s) and still provide decently high efficiency.
A 15" PR could be added on the back to make it even more like the Klipsch Forte, this
is going to be lower efficiency but should reach lower in the bass, while being truly low cost.
I'd enjoy hearing an A/B comparison to the Forte IV.
Most will probably not need a subwoofer for most music applications.
LARGE 3.6 cuft 12" LOW COST GRS WOOFER, LOW COST PRV DRIVER, STANDARD 6x12" WAVEGUIDE:
Thanks to @loaded for building this and reporting back on it.
This was a team effort, thanks to everyone:
XO was simulated by EarlK, many thanks - Has not yet been confirmed with detailed measurements.
Cost for one side, not including wood, wire, etc:
- GRS 12PT-8 $49
- PRV D230ti $29
- JBL Waveguide Clones from Aliexpress $9
- XO $38
- L Pad $15
Total $140 per side
I noted that this woofer will reach low (high 20s to mid 30s) and still provide decently high efficiency.
A 15" PR could be added on the back to make it even more like the Klipsch Forte, this
is going to be lower efficiency but should reach lower in the bass, while being truly low cost.
I'd enjoy hearing an A/B comparison to the Forte IV.
Most will probably not need a subwoofer for most music applications.
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The PRV D230Ti is discontinued:
D230Ti-S
The PRV D250Ti seems to be the same part, perhaps with some minor improvements - good (same) price at $30.
Dimensions are the same, VC dome appear to be the same, XO points and power handling seem to be the same:
The impedance is very similar, but a significant dip in the frequency response is improved on their test horn.
D250Ti: https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-2820--prv-audio-d250ti-s-spec-sheet.pdf
D230Ti: This seems to be removed from PE, a few days ago it was there with the discontinued notice.
Data for both is available at the PRV site.
If anyone tries the D250Ti please let us know how it performs.
D230Ti-S
The PRV D250Ti seems to be the same part, perhaps with some minor improvements - good (same) price at $30.
Dimensions are the same, VC dome appear to be the same, XO points and power handling seem to be the same:
The impedance is very similar, but a significant dip in the frequency response is improved on their test horn.
D250Ti: https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-2820--prv-audio-d250ti-s-spec-sheet.pdf
D230Ti: This seems to be removed from PE, a few days ago it was there with the discontinued notice.
Data for both is available at the PRV site.
If anyone tries the D250Ti please let us know how it performs.
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A member has posted to my profile asking how the JBL 6x12 fits into the bullnose NLA cabinet.
I mentioned that people have talked about trimming down the waveguide but he says that he
will have to take a lot of material off. My NLAs are utility cabs and they just fit.
Anyone know of a thread covering this or how to do it?
I've been thinking that the XT1086 would be a nice upgrade for the NLA Econowave but I don't
have one of these. Probably with the PRV D250ti for very econo and a better driver with a
higher budget.
I mentioned that people have talked about trimming down the waveguide but he says that he
will have to take a lot of material off. My NLAs are utility cabs and they just fit.
Anyone know of a thread covering this or how to do it?
I've been thinking that the XT1086 would be a nice upgrade for the NLA Econowave but I don't
have one of these. Probably with the PRV D250ti for very econo and a better driver with a
higher budget.
I used the Dayton H6512 in a NLA and did, indeed, have to trim the sides of the waveguide down. You have to do it all the way down to the absolute edge of the screw holes. I actually just breached the extreme edge of the screw holes with my trim job. I then cut out a jig and used a flush trim bit to route the baffle so the wave guide would fit flush. It was a PIA, for sure, but did work. I did not post my work in a thread but I could scrounge up some photos if you want.
Smiley
Thanks Steve, let's see if @calbuilder would like more info/pics.
calbuilder that PRV horn that you mentioned will not work since it is not constant directivity.
I'm thinking that if a builder just wants a smaller horn the Eminence WG-10 might work
without having to make major changes to the crossover. We want a constant directivity
or PT waveguide and not some other taper:
Or maybe the SEOS 10 or XT1086.
The XT1086 would be my first choice.
I've been meaning to point out here that it seems as if JBL has moved toward 100x90 deg waveguide
patterns for home and studio applications. The vertical pattern of the JBL 6x12 might be a bit tight
in the vertical to cover both seated and standing listening. Based on this thinking the OS11B might
be a better choice it is 11.25" wide, not sure if that fits the bullnose NLA, also the height (9.75") might
be tight in the NLA because the woofer is mounted higher up, should work fine in the OLA:
www.cinergyaudio.com
calbuilder that PRV horn that you mentioned will not work since it is not constant directivity.
I'm thinking that if a builder just wants a smaller horn the Eminence WG-10 might work
without having to make major changes to the crossover. We want a constant directivity
or PT waveguide and not some other taper:
Or maybe the SEOS 10 or XT1086.
The XT1086 would be my first choice.
I've been meaning to point out here that it seems as if JBL has moved toward 100x90 deg waveguide
patterns for home and studio applications. The vertical pattern of the JBL 6x12 might be a bit tight
in the vertical to cover both seated and standing listening. Based on this thinking the OS11B might
be a better choice it is 11.25" wide, not sure if that fits the bullnose NLA, also the height (9.75") might
be tight in the NLA because the woofer is mounted higher up, should work fine in the OLA:
Denovo Audio OS-11B 1" Oblate Waveguide Bolt-On
The Denovo Audio OS-11B is an Oblate Spheroidal design. The curved shape of an OS waveguide helps reduce diffraction effects, which then reduces distortion and coloration of the sound. The shape also improves directivity for a more focused sound dispersion. This can be particularly beneficial in...
www.cinergyaudio.com
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calbuilder
New Member
Pete, thanks very much for all the help. I will default to the H6512 if I can't find a suitable alternative. The bullnose NLA measures 7" from top to edge of woofer basket and 11.3" across. Really limits options. The WG-10 and XT1086 are too big for that and I don't think they could be trimmed to fit. The SEOS 10 or the SEOS 838, a tweeter mount version of the SEOS 10 will fit. A this point I am not sure if the consensus is compression drivers are the way to go. I watched a video comparing compression drivers to tweeters in waveguides by ASR. His measurements showed compression drivers were more efficient and performed slightly better, especially at low frequencies. Also, Some of the smaller Denovo Oblate Spheroids would also work but not the OS-11B.
Yes it seems like cutting down the H6512 is the simplest thing to do. You can measure but
I'm not sure if there's room for the side screws.
Something that I've noticed is that very few people position waveguide speakers correctly.
If you don't want to use significant toe in, there's not much point in having waveguide based
speakers in the home.
Earl Geddes made it clear that he uses 45 deg toe in. Thread on it:
Setup of CD Waveguide Speakers in the Home
I gave a presentation about it at one of the Frankenfests:
Presentation at Frankenfest 4-1-2023 "Why Waveguide Speakers"
.pdf from the presentation:
drive.google.com
I'm not sure if there's room for the side screws.
Something that I've noticed is that very few people position waveguide speakers correctly.
If you don't want to use significant toe in, there's not much point in having waveguide based
speakers in the home.
Earl Geddes made it clear that he uses 45 deg toe in. Thread on it:
Setup of CD Waveguide Speakers in the Home
I gave a presentation about it at one of the Frankenfests:
Presentation at Frankenfest 4-1-2023 "Why Waveguide Speakers"
.pdf from the presentation:
WHY WAVEGUIDE SPEAKERS.pdf
drive.google.com
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Regarding fitting the H6512 in an Advent Bullnose cabinet, a buddy of mine modified the internal cabinet edges on the baffle frame so he could slot in the waveguide with minimal huffing of black PVC plastic dust. To make the cuts, he used an oscillating cutting tool and a lot of patience. It worked pretty well!
I have a pair of Pioneer CS-53 I would like to mount a Econowave setup on top of them. Eliminating the existing tweeter. I have the CD (Selenium D220Ti)
and Waveguide sitting in my cart on Parts Express.
Anybody have a pair of the Zilche's Standard Crossover boards for this they would part with? Or could build, and sell me them?
Also, What L-Pad should I get for this set up?
Michael
and Waveguide sitting in my cart on Parts Express.
Anybody have a pair of the Zilche's Standard Crossover boards for this they would part with? Or could build, and sell me them?
Also, What L-Pad should I get for this set up?
Michael
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Would anybody have the schematic and parts list for this?