Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[jackgiff]

A, H, and H-1 are all supposed to be foamed on the rear of the cone.... :yes:

Yeah, I assumed that, but his pictures are too small for me to tell if they are actually foamed on the front. Looks that way to me, but I am unfamiliar with the 116 series cones and foams. If they are correct, it might be an excellent buy for an EconoWaver.

By the way, I just received the LE14A's that were bought on E-Bay for the Altec Sevilles. They look nicer than all the other pairs of A's I have bought. Now need to contact Rick Cobb for foams.

I love it when a plan comes together!

 

[Kegger]

There's no free lunch. It's an 8" driver, bottom line.

What WinISD doesn't tell you is you'll long since have run out of excursion in those larger box volumes.

Again, look to how JBL used the drivers for guidance.... :yes:

Hence the reason I said,

"(If the driver can hold together at those low notes anyway, looks to good to be true)"

I only take what the manufacturer's did with there given drivers with a grain of salt.
Who know's if they have same objective in mind as I do, like that large bump and an
abrupt cutoff of the low frequencies on the L60T, if they would have tuned the cab a
bit lower they could have lessened that bump and extended the low end out a bit more.

And as has been said the mid is lacking from not the best choice of components used
to mate quite well with each other. Sometimes marketing dictates what is built rather
than what is optimal for a given situation. Or used what is stocked parts for the job.
Many reasons why things are done the way they are, not all are the "best" choices.

I had modeled a 2.5 cab like you mentioned and that does look nice, also I figured that
8" driver would fall apart if pushed to far, just didn't know how far was to far, thanks.

I like 2.5 tuned to 30hz a bit better, and using mostly low powered amps as well here.
All the way down to say 1.75 cubic feet still looks pretty darn good for that little driver.

 

[Kegger]

do They Have Some Ratty Old Utah's In Them?

Y E P! (1 pair does anyway as I have 2 sets of these cabs)

With drivers, braces and whatnot should be just under 2.5 cubic feet of volume in there, :thmbsp:

 

[fxxm747]

Ok, I posted earlier about the suitability of using the CS-63 cabs I have. But now I think I found the cabs I'll use for this project. They are made by some company with the name of "Manchester". (I'm enclosing pics) These things are BIG so I should have all the room I need to play with. I think I'll probably have to change out the mid-woofer. (possibly with the 123a's I have from my L100's) I've all but given up finding any Le14's in a timely fashion, well at least not without paying an arm and a leg or them. And I don't ever see the the LE15's for sale. Again, big bucks there. But the present drivers may be a bit too efficient for this project as I understand it so far, and I have no idea what freq. this driver goes to. Am I wrong? You know, I've spend hours going over this thread and I think I get more confused as I go along. Seems like things change so fast with all the different applications! For instance I read the original horns being used were out of stock at JBL and have not seen anything indicating they are back in stock. Instead I'm reading of a larger horn from JBL being used now. Again, is that correct? I guess what I need is to know what is available for the HF at this time and which horn is best. The LF I'll figure out and start with the CO's listed in the thread and go from there like everyone else. But I'd like to at least get the parts in my hands now for the HF side. Now the other dilemma, after pulling the L-pads and cleaning them these things are quite good. Actually they ROCK and I've never had speakers with such a wide range of adjustment via the L-pads. They are sealed cabs (outside of the LF port) so to make the upgrade I'm afraid I'll have to destroy the original baffles. Bummer......... BTW I picked these up for $80 locally, pics do them injustice......they actually look awesome with just a few spots that need a little stain. I'm guessing late 60's early 70's on these by the hardware and cabs/grills. Man I love this stuff!!!!!......:thmbsp:

 

[fxxm747]

Had one mor pic I took the time to resize so here it is as well.

 

[Kegger]

This coming from the guy that will mod anything, I don't know if I'd want to tear apart
that top piece, I might consider stashing it away an build a new top piece for a horn?

As to the horns for the "Econo" it's still the same JBL, people are just experimenting with
others, also if you can't get the JBL because it's on back order, the PYLE version of that
same horn from I believe MCM? Is the equivalent many of us in Michigan are using an the
Selenium 210 drivers PE keeps putting on special.

 

[fxxm747]

Kegger how much a difference is there between the 210 and 220 Selenium really? If there's a noticeable difference I don't have a problem springing for a couple extra bucks.

 

[fxxm747]

Oh yeah, I have a coworker that is trying to convince me to buy a pair of Triangle Heliade's. He's an audiophile snob..... I so want to stick a successful econowave right up his left nostril! Or the right.....http://www.upscaleaudio.com/updates/esprit.pdf

 

[Kegger]

I can not answer that as I've only heard the 210, some say there is not much if any
difference and others have said the 220 is a bit better performer an smoother, if the
price difference doesn't bother you I'd probably suggest going the 220 route then.

We went in on a group buy and got the 210's for $22.00 each, quite a bit of savings.

 

[GordonW]

With box and tuning optimization, it's possible to get 116H-1 playing 32 Hz at 20W in something close to L60T, according to BB6P. I've got a better curve in 2.5 cuft getting ~100 dB down there, but it all turns to poop in larger volumes.

Have a look at 2.5 cuft. tuned to 33 Hz with one 3" duct at ~4.2".... :yes:

Yeah, I'd expect the L60T to benefit from a slightly longer port.

And IME... about 2 to 2.25 cubic feet @ about 32-33 Hz vent tuning seems to be a "sweet spot"... good power handling, and good bass damping.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Kegger]

Yeah, I'd expect the L60T to benefit from a slightly longer port.

And IME... about 2 to 2.25 cubic feet @ about 32-33 Hz vent tuning seems to be a "sweet spot"... good power handling, and good bass damping.

Regards,
Gordon.

Hey Gordon are you familliar with the EPI 200?

I'm wondering what the tuning would be with it's original passive radiators?
It's internal volume after subtracting brace an drivers is roughly 2.35 cu ft.

 

[Zilch]

I think I'll probably have to change out the mid-woofer. (possibly with the 123a's I have from my L100's) I've all but given up finding any Le14's in a timely fashion, well at least not without paying an arm and a leg or them.

Don't assume. Try E'Wave with the existing woofer before agonizing about alternatives. LE14As are plentiful and they ARE available; Jackgiff just scored another pair for his Sevilles.

And I don't ever see the the LE15's for sale.

NOT an option. They won't play up to 1.6 kHz.

But the present drivers may be a bit too efficient for this project as I understand it so far, and I have no idea what freq. this driver goes to. Am I wrong?

It would be a rare driver, indeed, so efficient that E'Wave won't mate with it. Again, try with your existing woofer.

You know, I've spend hours going over this thread and I think I get more confused as I go along. Seems like things change so fast with all the different applications!

Nothing changes. Understand the thread from the perspective that E'Wave HF is the constant in all of them.

For instance I read the original horns being used were out of stock at JBL and have not seen anything indicating they are back in stock.

And you also read that the lead time was two weeks, and 30 days EX-US. Call the JBL Pro Parts number with your credit card in hand to find out the current status of shipments.

Instead I'm reading of a larger horn from JBL being used now. Again, is that correct?

No, it's a smaller waveguide, 8" square, actually, experimental at this point, for use in "Mini" E'Waves.

I guess what I need is to know what is available for the HF at this time and which horn is best.

Stick with the original program.

The LF I'll figure out and start with the CO's listed in the thread and go from there like everyone else. But I'd like to at least get the parts in my hands now for the HF side.

Pick up the phone and call.

Now the other dilemma, after pulling the L-pads and cleaning them these things are quite good. Actually they ROCK and I've never had speakers with such a wide range of adjustment via the L-pads.

E'Wave is not afraid.

They are sealed cabs (outside of the LF port) so to make the upgrade I'm afraid I'll have to destroy the original baffles. Bummer.........

Not if you do it intelligently. In fact, It may be nothing has to be modified.

BTW I picked these up for $80 locally, pics do them injustice......they actually look awesome with just a few spots that need a little stain. I'm guessing late 60's early 70's on these by the hardware and cabs/grills. Man I love this stuff!!!!!......:thmbsp:

So, if you find that E'Wave sucks by comparison, leave 'em be....

 

[GordonW]

Hey Gordon are you familliar with the EPI 200?

I'm wondering what the tuning would be with it's original passive radiators?
It's internal volume after subtracting brace an drivers is roughly 2.35 cu ft.

Probably tuned somewhere around 28-30 Hz or so, IIRC.

However... all you have to do is to add or subtract weight to make it lower or higher...

That could be cool with a 116H...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Russellc]

2235H pair is ready!

Just got a call from Slice Speakers, the local JBL service center and my 2235H drivers are ready. With these, the almost complete charge coupled crossover, I've got e'waveing to do. Cant wait to hear them with the new drivers!

russellc

 

[Andyman]

Probably tuned somewhere around 28-30 Hz or so, IIRC.

However... all you have to do is to add or subtract weight to make it lower or higher...

That could be cool with a 116H...

Regards,
Gordon.

Of course, I too have a set of EPI 200s also.... New projects everywhere I turn....

Maybe I should just let Keg borrow the 116s :scratch2:

 

[Zilch]

Maybe I should just let Keg borrow the 116s :scratch2:

116H-1s, no? Let's be precise here, so as not to confuse readers; they are different drivers. T/S parameters courtesy member Giskard, imported from LHF:

H-2 was used in the 4408 Studio Monitor:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio Monitor Series/4408.pdf

And consumer L40t3:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/L40T3 ts.pdf

There's also an H-3 variant, used in the 4408A:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio Monitor Series/4408ALR.pdf

Those you can still buy new for $274 apiece. YIKES!

See also LE8T-H, and 708G-1, both occasionally available on eBay.

 

[publius]

I spent a couple of hours this afternoon reading this thread from start to finish. There are some interesting side notes, which I followed all along as the thread developed, but a lot of them were not followed today. It offers a tremendous opportunity to learn what horns or "waveguides" are all about. And everyone who has tried the EconoWave has loved it.

My compliments to Zilch for starting the thread in response to a crying need for information about two way "horn" systems. Many AK'ers wanted info, and were unsure about how "horn" systems really sounded. The JBL waveguide, which was dirt cheap offered a great introduction, along with the Selenium D220Ti HF drivers.

Wayne Parham chipped in with some great info which ultimately led to the final crossover designs. Gordon Waters and Earl Geddes also provided some much needed input (Gordon on this forum, Geddes on another). Zilch, of course, offered his overall knowledge in so many ways. Many others, too numerous to name, hopped on the bandwagon early on, and gave the thread much needed impetus. My hat is off to all of you.

The thread was meant to be a "hands on" learning experience which would put the practitioner into a learning experience which would ultimately lead to the development of some real "I built it myself" speaker systems, and the sharing of two way systems knowledge. It has been exceedingly successful.

Early on, Zilch mentioned that the goal was to develop an HF system which would mate with virtually any woofer. As such, the crossover was just designed with 'beginning" values, since each woofer that might be used was unknown. Tweaking for the appropriate woofers, such as Zobels, and other FR circuits could be developed by the individual user. Also, HF comp could be affected by varying the HF compensation capacitor.

This thread has introduced many users to the fantastic performance of waveguide or "horn" systems, and the latest waveguide technology has eliminated the "honkiness" or shout of earlier horn systems.

There are still many lessons to be learned, and to read this thread completely is just the beginning. I still have two more EconoWave projects to complete, in addition to the printed circuit board making tutorial promised. We are just beginning. Several EconoWave projects are underway, and should be presented in this thread soon. Development of smaller JBL waveguides (which are really cheap), will open up the EconoWave to smaller bookshelf speakers. Much of this development has already been accomplished by Zilch, but the 6 inch square waveguide has not been touched yet. Several are working on it.

If you are a new reader, welcome aboard. Read the entire thread and follow along. You will become an informed reader, if not an "expert".

here here!

 

[Kegger]

Good info Zilch, now I think were on a similar page, as with those 116H-1 parameters.
I like 2.35-2.50 cu ft tuned to 32 hertz, that looks pretty good to me anyway, thanks.

 

[JakeB]

Compatible woofer specs would be nice for the avg. joe diyer, like myself.

I've seena lot of driver names thrown about, but perhaps important t/s specs that can't be too far off would be nice to know.

Also, can a 10/12/15" woofer be used? Recommended?

I am looking at partsexpress's Eminence lineup, and I too overwhelmed with choices.

I've read many of the 130+ pages of thread, but not all, so if I missed it, sorry.

 

[Zilch]

Compatible woofer specs would be nice for the avg. joe diyer, like myself.

We're discussing 8" drivers suitable for building experimental "Mini" E'Waves here.

Members have built the standard version with Dayton, Eminence, JBL, Pioneer, and other woofers, 10", 12", and 14", mostly. 15"s don't play well up to the requisite 1.6 kHz, generally.

I'm hoping Gordon will answer your question; he's familiar with what's available new and might be most suitable.

Good info Zilch, now I think were on a similar page, as with those 116H-1 parameters. I like 2.35-2.50 cu ft tuned to 32 hertz, that looks pretty good to me anyway, thanks.

For the record, and generally speaking, if I've got 2.5 cuft, they're getting LE14H-3s; a pair of those in retuned L55s here, which are even smaller, as I recall. If you've got that much volume, there are better options than maxing out an 8" driver, in my view.... :yes: