Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[ValvTubeHead]

lurkin' good time

high techno-tainment value thread gents...manythanks; most of which i've enjoyed whilst listening to my microbrewaveguide, bms equipt activexo 3-way. Wish I had the hobbytime to keep up with the older kids, but appreciate & cheer from up here in the iBleachers :thmbsp:

Maybe I can join the fun in some sort of 10" bookshelf shootout.
Cheers!
vth

tonights enjoyment listening:
Duke Ellington Meets Coleman Hawkins
Rickie Lee Jones - Pirates

turntable in a big brown truck enroute

 

[ttan98]

Jackgiff and ValvTubehead,

I see both of you mount the econowaveguide in open baffle(OB) rather than in the cabinet, I am doing the same, I found the sound to improve. What do you say?

When both units waveguide and woofer are mounted in OB then the sound is not that focus besides the bass suffers.

cheers.

 

[jackgiff]

Jackgiff and ValvTubehead,

I see both of you mount the econowaveguide in open baffle(OB) rather than in the cabinet, I am doing the same, I found the sound to improve. What do you say?

When both units waveguide and woofer are mounted in OB then the sound is not that focus besides the bass suffers.

cheers.

I have played with the waveguide mounted above the cabinet, but any project that was completed has the waveguide and driver mounted in the cabinet. That way, they can't move with respect to one another, and change any tuning that was done.

You are probably referring to my picture of the waveguide on top of the Baronet clone, which is not operational yet. It was placed there simply to show that it will fit on the baffle, and it has no driver attached. It will be mounted to the baffle and inside the cabinet when the project is tested and done.

Open baffles are nirvana to some people, but they don't do anything for me. A tuned ported cabinet provides so much more bass with most LF drivers, but everyones taste is not the same. Thank God for our differences.

 

[ttan98]

Jack,

I mean you can try listening with just the waveguide mounted outside the cabinet and not the woofer.That way you have best of both worlds.

Maybe you try both combinations and let us know.

 

[ValvTubeHead]

Jackgiff and ValvTubehead,

I see both of you mount the econowaveguide in open baffle(OB) rather than in the cabinet, I am doing the same, I found the sound to improve. What do you say?

When both units waveguide and woofer are mounted in OB then the sound is not that focus besides the bass suffers.

cheers.

my understanding is compression drivers (domes and ribbons for that matter) by nature/design do not employ the cabinet volume to reproduce sound...self contained for lack of a better description. I reckon the horn assembly may exhibit some resonance which could be affected by manner in which they are enclosed, mounted or treated. I think I read a post way back where Zilch treated PT horns with a spray-on coating and even considered mounting in an isloated enclosure with a medium to deaden.

I was more concerned about the physical volume occupied by a horn assembly in my already small, recruited bookshelf cabs. I think the low-end efficiency is borderline in my frugal mid-bass acoustic suspension config; my little pair of 8" "subs" crossed in a bit high ~100Hz do a really nice job to complement... they seem somewhat directional, so I've arranged them as shown.

 

[ttan98]

I find mounting econowaveguide and infact another waveguide on a baffle larger than the size of the waveguide tends to alter the FR of the waveguide. FR from Waveguide without the baffle ie mounted open air tends to have a "flatter" response. The open baffle sound coming from the waveguides are more open and less focus. Depending on the room it can sound quite good. Moving the woofer to open baffle is another story.

This what I found.

 

[Russellc]

Has anyone out there used the JBL 2225H or 2235H in an econowave?
I've been using 2225H w/pretty good luck.

Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

Has anyone out there used the JBL 2225H or 2235H in an econowave?
I've been using 2225H w/pretty good luck.

Russellc

Hi Russell, Build them with 2235H's, and they will come. I have a pair of two ways using 2235H's, and although they are not Econo by any stretch of the imagination, it is hard to conceive of a better woofer. I am sure the 2225H with the same motor and frame, in a properly setup cabinet is a match for the 2235H. The beloved LE14A is close, but just not quite in the same league.

 

[Russellc]

Hi Russell, Build them with 2235H's, and they will come. I have a pair of two ways using 2235H's, and although they are not Econo by any stretch of the imagination, it is hard to conceive of a better woofer. I am sure the 2225H with the same motor and frame, in a properly setup cabinet is a match for the 2235H. The beloved LE14A is close, but just not quite in the same league.

Well, i keep putzing around and havent got my spare 2225H reconed to 2235H yet.

I really need to do that, I figure if I do, I could build 4430 if nothing else.

Thanks for the reply, basically I posted this as I havent yet procured a deq 2496 and I'm wondering how the horn is matching the woofer crossoverwise, if it could use a zobel, etc. Guess I could go to the LH forum and check some cross overs and see how JBL approached it.

Thanks again,
Russellc

 

[Zilch]

The many directions this thread has taken us, both real and theoretical, are most gratifying for me as proponent of DIY, especially with such diverse interests and applications documented here.

Ttan98 observes that the EconoWaveguide does behave differently mounted on a baffle vs. standing free. As VTH points out, though, the compression driver and waveguide comprise a closed system; the differences which occur derive primarily from loading of the waveguide mouth, and the phase alignment of the final configuration. The same is true for virtually any horn or waveguide.

Look to Geddes, et.al. regarding techniques for coupling the waveguide to the room with greatest efficiency and minimal edge diffraction and coloration. As Jackgiff, Wayne Parham and Skywave-rider have demonstrated, there are "tricks" involved in making it happen well on an aesthetically pleasing common flat baffle. We also know from 4430 and others it doesn't "have" to be done that way.

For those desiring to work with smaller woofers, there are now alternative EconoWaveguides available; the 8" square rotatable one Skywave and I are working with might fit VTH's Muskas quite nicely. I've used them in Advent, KLH, and Heath cabinets successfully now.... :thmbsp:

As far as making another pair of these, no thanks. I appreciate the compliment, but... "been there, done that." I wasted a few sides and other parts getting all the angles figured out, especially how to cut and mount the internal baffles, which were cut out of this pair with my sawzall. Seems like a waste now. Building the two pair was a labor of love, and very enjoyable, but enough is enough.

Plans for the original scale Baronets are available on the E-V website, but I think I'd be beefing up the panel thickness on those; the factory ones were thicker than the "kits."

OTOH, Jack's 1.5X versions seem most excellently scaled for both appearance and performance, and he MIGHT be pursuaded to provide plans for construction by others.... :yes:

 

[jackgiff]

Plans for the original scale Baronets are available on the E-V website, but I think I'd be beefing up the panel thickness on those; the factory ones were thicker than the "kits."

OTOH, Jack's 1.5X versions seem most excellently scaled for both appearance and performance, and he MIGHT be pursuaded to provide plans for construction by others.... :yes:

I really don't think the factory cabinets were thicker than the kits. I had two pairs of Baronets and two pairs of Aristocrats, and was just appalled at the build quality. The design was exemplary, but the finished product was too flimsy for my tastes. That is why I built the large and small Baronets, to see what could be done with heavier construction techniques. 3/4 inch MDF in the large ones, and 3/4 inch particle board in the small ones made them much more rigid that the factory cabinets. Where they suggest 3/8 inch panels, I used at least 1/2 inch MDF. Mine were definitely a lot more solid than the factory cabinets that passed through my hands.

I still have two original Baronet front baffles, and they are only 3/8 inch thick. They are factory completed originals, complete with grille cloth and speaker mounting posts. If anyone wants them, just PM me your shipping address, and they are yours. The EV plans on their website calls out 1/2 inch thickness for the front baffle, but they didn't use that in the ones these baffles came from.

There are no plans for the large Baronets. I simply worked out the angles as I went, and scrapped a few pieces along the way. If it were to be done again, there are lots of things that would be done differently. A design like you presented once on the Lansing Heritage site would be much more appealing to me to build, than another pair of Baronets. Rectangular boxes are easiest to build, but something different always grabs my attention.

How much are the 8 inch square waveguides? They sound interesting for a pair of speakers I plan to make for my nephew.

 

[Zilch]

How much are the 8 inch square waveguides? They sound interesting for a pair of speakers I plan to make for my nephew.

$14 for the 1" cheapo plastic thread-on version, ~$100 for the composite 1.5" version, both 90° x 50°.

The cute 6" square thread-on 100° x 100° one (think 4430) is just $6, but we don't know how low it will play with full pattern control yet.

 

[jackgiff]

Well, these are going to be more of a project than the larger Baronets. The front baffles were sealed into the cabinet with silicone rubber (RTV). Must have been some strange hatred or fear of air leaks that caused me to do that. Drat!!

Routers are great for removing wood you don't want, like glued in baffles, but they can be dangerous when in close proximity to a large piece of wood, such as a baffle which has just been freed by the router. The baffles were cut out with a sabre saw first to preclude that happening.

Next the remaining baffle material along the edges was removed with the router, which exposed the original harwood mounting rails. The router was set to cut about one sixteenth of an inch lower than necessary, so the mounting rails were smoothed. Blue painters tape protected the edges from being scraped and scratched by the router. Also, since the 3/4 thick edge was the only guide for the router, some removal of veneer was done inside the cabinet, but it will be covered by the new baffle and grille.

Ooops!!! Another drat!! I cut through the back of both sides of the first cabinet while cutting out the internal baffles with a sawzall. Some guys shouldn't be allowed near power tools. Oh well, it can be fixed with stained wood putty.

 

[jackgiff]

Finally got the Baronet clone cabinets loaded with drivers. There was just enough material at my shop to build one baffle with 3/4 inch MDF and one with particle board. The woofers used for these guys are the Goldwood GW-10PC-40-8, and the HF drivers are a pair of D210Tis that were left over from previous testing, mounted on the Pyle waveguides.

Lots of different parts, but still the same smooth results from the EconoWave. The Pyle waveguides are virtually identical to JBL's, and the D210Ti's were previously seen to be interchangeable with the D220Ti's. The cabinet is roughly 1.6 cubic feet, tuned to 30 Hz. The port is placed on the back of the cabinet.

Without the compensation for the HF, it was not really possible to get the HF low enough to match the LF from the Goldwood woofer. The CX-3400 CD horn compensation made the HF look very flat, but then it was WAY high. The 3.5 KHz Hi Pass with compensation was added, while the CX-3400 still provided the crossover at 1.2 Khz. It made it then quite easily adjustable with the crossovers controls, and the FR is shown. This woofer has 40 Ounces of ceramic magnet, and a cast aluminum frame. Not quite what you expect from Goldwood, but it matches seamlessly with the EconoWave HF. It would certainly be one of my choices if new parts were what the constructor wanted, rather than vintage.

These smaller Baronet clones sound very nice, and certainly image well. The sloped front must make a huge difference. Guess that is why JBL made stands for the L100's that tilted them back. Now a little refinishing to knock off the years of being beaten around, and some modifications to the grilles to clear the new drivers.

 

[Zilch]

VERY nicely done, Jack, another E'Wave success. :yes:

1.6 cuft is equivalent of large bookshelf volume; S99 and L100 come immediately to mind.

I've always liked the Baronet tilted-baffle design. One application I used way back in the early '60s was inverted at the wall/ceiling junction. Doesn't have to be corners, and the rear port still works.

They're out of the way in small spaces, and with the 90° controlled directivity of E'Wave, sidewall reflections would be minimal. That's also Geddes's recommended toe-in. First reflection comes from the opposite wall, and the sweet spot is very wide.

I haven't tried that recently, but your findings suggest they'll image like crazy in that configuration. :thmbsp:

 

[skywave-rider]

Jack I love those speakers. Just to make sure I know what ur doing, ur running cx3400 without CD horn compensation and using the HF out of it to the Econo-hi pass and compensation filter. Right?

To me it's amazing that with 24dB/octave LR filter on the 3400 low pass, plus the spread (1.2k for the woofer?), you get such a nice summation.

How do u like the upper end of the Goldwood's response?

Zilch's wall/ceiling mount suggestion makes a lot of sense for my predicament.

:thmbsp:

 

[Russellc]

Well this certainly has been a very worthwhile thread, in way more than just a few ways. First, an excellent project, adaptable to a wide range of low frequency drivers and boxes. From 8 inch to 15 inch, econowave has played with them all. Secondly, an excellent tutorial on crossover design, compensation, and theory behind it. Thirdly, from this and other forums, expert input and even testing of econowave, (Geddes) and input on speaker design for these types of drivers, (Wayne @ Pi speaker) as well as our own Zilch and Jackgiff (and others) showing how the RTA plays out in this design. Very nice, as their charts and graphs show the effects of the various crossover configurations on the particular driver. Lastly, the input of all the forum members and their results with various woofer/box combinations.

My own experiment has been very fruitful, and after extended listening to both my A7 system as well as the Econowave, I feel I can fairly compare the two.

First the A7 setup. It is in a fairly large basement room, carpeted with cement floor underneath. while it could definately power a larger room, this is better by far than the old setup at the other house. It has a big west coast vintage sound, really comes alive at volume. I keep the RS Db meter nearby, these things can get dangerously loud without one really noticing it unless there is someone else there, and you notice you cant hear each other!
See pics below.

Second, the Econowave. It is upstairs in a hardwood floored living room, also fairly good size. The Econowave is much more monitor like, big image, transparent with more bass than the A7 system. Pics also below.

I had forum member Rybeam over the other day to hear the results, and he was impressed more with the Econowave setup, stating it was a much more "clear" system, while the A7 seemed a little more "bright" to his ears. I never really thought of the a7 as bright, but in comparison to Econowave, it does sound a little more difuse and fizzy in direct comparison. The econowave has more high frequency extention to be sure, but does not seem as "fizzy" in the high end. My A7 crossover does have compensation, and I figured this my be the culprit, and did find dialing down the l-pad seemed to help.

In short, the great A7 is a really fun speaker with a lot of mid bass punch,
but the econowave is the more accurate speaker, and is way more suitable
for close range listening than the A7. The econowave is more than really accurate, it is one fine speaker which I am learning to enjoy more and more. Unfortunately, ihave yet to get my recones done for 2235H, and alas no RTA to tweek with. All in good time. As the pictures of the two other smaller systems show, I am full up on projects, most every speaker and components of these two systems needs work...all in good time!

 

[jackgiff]

I've always liked the Baronet tilted-baffle design. One application I used way back in the early '60s was inverted at the wall/ceiling junction. Doesn't have to be corners, and the rear port still works.

They're out of the way in small spaces, and with the 90° controlled directivity of E'Wave, sidewall reflections would be minimal. That's also Geddes's recommended toe-in. First reflection comes from the opposite wall, and the sweet spot is very wide.

I haven't tried that recently, but your findings suggest they'll image like crazy in that configuration. :thmbsp:

Your pair used to hang in the corners of the garage, but they didn't have EconoWaves in them yet. They sounded so very sweet even with the Trusonic components, and being untuned in such a harsh environment. Garages don't have carpet, overstuffed furniture, and drapes. At least not mine. I can only imagine what they will sound like in that configuration with the E-Waves. Maybe you can tell us.

1.6 cuft is equivalent of large bookshelf volume; S99 and L100 come immediately to mind.

S99's came to my mind, as well. The LE14A's really do a nice job in that volume. And another pair just came my way. Next week after being refoamed, they will eat away at me, screaming for a chance to be heard in the Baronets. But the Goldwoods are so good in them, and LE14A's aren't really necessary, are they? Like putting a 440 Hemi in a small Fiat. Yeah, Baby!!

Jack I love those speakers. Just to make sure I know what ur doing, ur running cx3400 without CD horn compensation and using the HF out of it to the Econo-hi pass and compensation filter. Right?

To me it's amazing that with 24dB/octave LR filter on the 3400 low pass, plus the spread (1.2k for the woofer?), you get such a nice summation.

How do u like the upper end of the Goldwood's response?

Zilch's wall/ceiling mount suggestion makes a lot of sense for my predicament.

:thmbsp:

That is exactly how the CX-3400 is being used. It has CD compensation at the push of a button, but it is not being used here. I think the summation is due to the very flat response of the 10 inch Goldwood woofer. It is a super nice sounding woof, and has been played crossed at 2 KHz with a Goldwood tweeter. That will probably become the speaker package that will be used in the pair to be made for my nephew. The cabinets may be more bookshelf sized, and will probably by veneered in bubinga, which has been laying around in my shop for a long time.

 

[Russellc]

Jackgiff,
does the goldsound woofer "woof" as well as the JBL driver from the L 100 family? Wondering if it does the really powerful bass the way JBL driver did?

Thanks, Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

Some A/B'ing with the big Baronets and DIY 4430's.

Finally got the big Baronets upstairs, and hooked up next to the DIY 4430's that were built a couple years ago. The DIY's cost about $2,000 to build, while the EconoBaronets cost about $300. The system is powered by a Marantz 3800 preamp and 510M amplifier. The 3800 preamp contains speaker switching to handle two pairs of speakers. Seemed like a big waste when they were purchased, but it does make the A/B comparison much easier. Only thing better would be for mama to get trained to switch them on command.

The DIY's are built in JBL L200 cabinets, and drivers are 2235H, 2431H, and the waveguide is same as Econo's, but 1.5 inch throat, and costs about $100 each. The EconoBaronet uses a JBL 2214H and Selenium D220Ti, with the $10 JBL waveguide.

I expected the DIY's to win hands down. Wrong! The 2214H surprised the crud out of me by making better bass than the 2235H on the first pass. One port of the L200 cabinet was plugged with a Zilchplug, to get extended bass. That made it sound unnatural, or "boomy." It seemed it was trying to go somewhere it didn't really want to go. Removing the Zilchplugs restored the bass back to where it wanted to be. Now the 2235H bass is maybe a bit stronger than the 2214H's, but the smaller JBL is certainly up to the task. Bass is now a tossup. Fast and tight on both units.

The HF end was also a big surprise for me. I almost wanted the 2431 to outperform the D220. And for awhile it seemed as though it did. The HF just sounded smoother to my ears coming from the DIY. But again, after listening to several CD's that I am familiar with, when the 2431 sounded better on a passage, going back and comparing the 2431 with the D220 showed that the D220 was every bit as clear. And on one CD, Odyssey by the Sahnas Brothers, the sound of their fingers moving on the guitar strings was simply more audible on the EconoWave. Mind boggling. I love the HF response from both speakers, and maybe the DIY still seems "better" to me, but after lots of stopping and starting to test passages, "better" doesn't seem to be a measurable term. Since the 2431H's cost so much more than the Seleniums, my mind seems to be struggling to think the Econo could measure up. But it does.

I am certainly not through comparing, but the EconoWave seems to be able to measure up to some pretty stiff competition. If you have thought about trying the EconoWave, just go for it. It won't dissappoint you.