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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

What now, Kemo Sabe?
Set your highpass at ~800 Hz and measure several D220Tis under the same conditions to see what the variability is in the sub 2 kHz range.

I haven't looked at the spec sheet in a while, but trying to get full response out of it at 1.2 kHz, even with 24 dB/octave filters, may not be workable. The PE recommended crossover frequency is 2 kHz.

We get away with lower in the passive, because it's part of the compensation scheme. The same should work active doing the compensation with midband attenuation rather than CX3400's "boost." It's knocking down the peak at 2 kHz that got us there.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80290&d=1203832069

Selenium website is not working for me today to access the spec....
 
Set your highpass at ~800 Hz and measure several D220Tis under the same conditions to see what the variability is in the sub 2 kHz range.

I haven't looked at the spec sheet in a while, but trying to get full response out of it at 1.2 kHz, even with 24 dB/octave filters, may not be workable. The PE recommended crossover frequency is 2 kHz.

I looked at the paper copies I have of the D210Ti and D220Ti. The 220 drops 5 db from 1.5 down to 1 KHz. The 210 only drops 2 db. It would seem to be the better choice, but there has to be a way to make the D220Ti do the deed.

I changed one of the 2214H's for a Trusonic 120FR, and while it still has a drop at around 1.2 Khz or so, it seems much better than the JBL, response wise. Different, anyway.

Since the 3 KHz hi pass does such a good job of smoothing the 1.6 KHz bump, it may work by itself as the HF compensation, but the crossover frequency may have to be moved way too much above 1.2 KHz to use it. I tried tuning the hi pass at 1.8 KHz, which leaves some portion of the 1.6 KHz bump on the HF driver response. Combining the LF and HF leaves a dip at the crossover frequency, with a lump at the beginning of the HF. Moving the crossover frequency up a notch or two on the CX-3400 panel decreases the notch and smooths the bump. This approach seems like it would work, but the details of setting the hi pass frequency need to worked out better than what we have. Here are the FRS of the JBL HF only, combined with crossover at 1.2 KHZ, and with the crossover set a notch or two higher. Also the same FR's for the Trusonic.

The .47 microfarad compensation capacitor gave a slight rise in HF response with this scheme, so I changed it to .22 microfarads. Seems like it wants something in between, but that can be worked out if I can settle on the correct frequency.

I only have the two D220Tis readily available to test, but have two more which will take some effort to get out of their cabinets. They are set on top of the storage cabinets in the garage, and I truly don't relish getting them down to test.
 

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Your HF FR shows the peak at 2 kHz, just as I got on CLIO in the link at #541. Are you doing any HF comp there?

I'll fire it up again for a fresh look here. I think that curve shows what needs to be done, which, in my view, would include a parallel notch at 2 kHz. That should get you down to ~1.5 kHz. It may not sound good, but it'll get there.

******

The 2214H appears to be making substantially deeper bass than 120FR in that alignment. That'd have to be confirmed with nearfield measurements, tho.... :yes:
 
No new woofer only baffles yet, but I AutoEqed current baffle arrangement of passive Econowave. For those interested, EQ setting is posted and sounds quite nice. I'm hoping to have flat response in the crossover region once I can move the waveguide around.
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Well, its been bi-amp play time for several days here, and Jack has learned some more lessons. Not all of them were what was expected. I have tested hi pass frequencies of 1.8 Hz, 2 KHz, 2.5 KHz, and 2.75 Khz. None are any more effective than the EconoWaves original HP of 3 KHz. And the 3 KHz hi pass does just a great job of flattening the response of the HF section, that it would be difficult to beat. I finally settled on using it along with the normal bi-amp setup, rather than a parallel notch to remove the 1.6-2 KHz bump, since both would be affected by the input signal changing as the electronic crossover cuts the HF signal to the Tweeter. The circuit I used is shown in the first picture. The electronic crossover allows adjusting the levels enough to compensate for their different levels, but the Parham HF correction was used since it is part of the HF compensation package of the EconoWave.

As the crossover signal exceeds approximately 1.2 KHz, an increase in frequency causes the entire 2 KHz bump which was present to start to fall. I had thought that lowering the crossover point of the HF part of the EconoWave would give a small bump around 2 KHz, which could be used to tell that the crossover point was being exceeded as it was raised above 1.2 KHz. But instead of just affecting the leading edge of the bump, it dropped all of it.

Just as the woofer in the original EconoWave played out to 1.2 KHz, and the HF section picked up at that point, using the same filter will allow the bi-amped version to do the same thing. Using a CX-3400 electronic crossover allows even more control of the two signal signals, such as delaying the woofer signal which allows "time alignment" of the hi and low signals. I have tried some adjustments so far, but haven't learned everything about doing it properly. It is a touchy little adjust to get operating correctly, and can be very effective to help smooth out that last bit of notching at crossover. On some of the following signals, it may have been possible to get it a little closer, but these were mostly done with the waveguide sitting on top of the cabinets and I didn't spend that much time trying to make it perfect for each trial.

The second picture is of my mule backed up to the storage cabinets, which allows easier removal and replacement of the LE14A equipped Santana cabinet that the original EconoWave is in. The next three pix are of the LE14A based Santana being bi-amped, and the large Baronet clones with Trusonic 120FR and JBL 2214H. My next post will show a couple other iterations that were tested.
 

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Here are some other variations of the bi-amped EconoWave that were tested. The first pic shows a JBL Decade 38 that was given to me as an orphan by someone who knew I was into JBL. I wouldn't be into JBL if it was all anything like the D38. The woofer is cheap, the crossover is two caps, and it leaves a lot to be desired. But the woofer did a pretty nice job of becoming part of an EconoWave, so looks aren't everything.

The next pic is of a Baronet clone with a Trusonic 80FR. It doesn't make super bass since the cabinet is untuned, just like the large Baronets were, but does a super job of mating with the EconoWave top end. Just to be sure that the tilted front baffle didn't affect the readings, the next pic shows the cabinet laying on it's side, so that both drivers are on the same plane.

Storm gave me a pair of Aztec Rembrandts last week, so the 12 inch woofer of one of them was tried. It is shown in the fourth pic. The speaker sounds pretty good, but the driver itself is pretty cheap, with hardly enough magnet to compare to the other speakers used here.

And lastly, the Altec 416Z which is the bass driver in the Altec 846A Valencia. These speakers have been with me since 1967.

As can be seen, some woofers mate pretty well, and some are kind of "wobbly" as far as making the overall frequency response stay flat. But the woofers are what they are, and are beyond the scope of the EconoWave thread. The 2214H's don't measure all that well, but sound absolutely dynamite. They will become part of a passive EconoWave in the large Baronet clones, which are now sealed and tuned.

All of the FR's shown are with the CX-3400 set at 1.2 KHz crossover, except the Altec 416Z. It is set one click higher, just to show what happens to the HF response between 1.6 KHz and 3 KHz. The entire area where the bump in the D220Ti's response was is depressed, and the HF looks to be rising, rather than relatively flat. The FR is much better with the crossover set down one click. And it looks like the 2214H in the previous post is probably set one click high as well. The crossover frequency shouldn't bother the HF until it gets to around 1.2 KHz. Then the entire first part of the highs seems to drop. This can be used to help interface the lows and highs.
 

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Jack,
You've been busy!
It's pretty clear that you've got several combinations there which work well in the crossover region. This concept, using active with the top leg of Econowave, seems to be the way to go.

When /if you get one variation to the point where you like it, it might be cool to compare it to your favorite passive Econowave box.

I intend to try the active version as well with the circuit you posted.

Thanks, and love the pics too.
:thmbsp:
 
jackgiff,

You may read my post on the purchase of the econowaveguide, I have tried the following combinations,

I. Mounted the econoWG with D220Ti on the JBL cabinet using existing woofer(JBL) and use the existing x-over from JBL. Drive the speaker from a single amp. The x-over is not ideal but adequate.

2. Mounted the econoWG with DT220Ti on the JBL cabinet with existing wooder and use DC2496 X-over and adjust appropriate x-over/transfer function to suit combo. Then drive the drivers separately from 2 power amps, ie biamping. Note no passive x-over components anywhere.

The 2nd config sounds superior hands down. I recommend the DCX2496 very flexible, costs about $250 each new not refurbished. Tell us what you found.
 
jackgiff,

You may read my post on the purchase of the econowaveguide, I have tried the following combinations,

I. Mounted the econoWG with D220Ti on the JBL cabinet using existing woofer(JBL) and use the existing x-over from JBL. Drive the speaker from a single amp. The x-over is not ideal but adequate.

2. Mounted the econoWG with DT220Ti on the JBL cabinet with existing wooder and use DC2496 X-over and adjust appropriate x-over/transfer function to suit combo. Then drive the drivers separately from 2 power amps, ie biamping. Note no passive x-over components anywhere.

The 2nd config sounds superior hands down. I recommend the DCX2496 very flexible, costs about $250 each new not refurbished. Tell us what you found.

Your results are not surprising. As Zilch has mentioned, every compression driver is different, and every horn/waveguide is different. Put them together, and each combination needs it's own compensation to perform adequately. I have no idea what sort of driver/horn combination the MR825 has, but it's HF compensation is not the same as the DF220Ti on the JBL waveguide used in the EconoWave. You may have been lucky the compensation built into the JBL crossover for the MR825 was reasonably close, and sounded good. But it didn't sound as good as the Econowave built with it's own crossover as detailed in this thread.

Hooking the driver/waveguide to an electronic crossover allowed adjustment for all the response errors that are common when playing with a compression driver/horn combo. If they are handled correctly, the result should sound better than hooking the horn/driver combo to a totally different compensation scheme that is tuned or selected for a different combination.

It would help if you showed the Frequency Response plots (FR's) from the combinations you have described. Do you have a Real Time Analyzer?
 
Jackgiff

here are the FR for both configigurations,

1. pink curve, using JBL x-over the said earlier, not ideal but adequate.
2. brown curve, using DCX x-over, sounds a lot better.

I must say bi-amp the speaker improves the speakers soundstage.
 

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Other Waveguide

This may be of interest to some Econowavers:
I just got the JBL 90x50 PTD95, 8" square, which Zilch has used in the Advent Loudspeaker thread, and I assume elsewhere:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1931172&postcount=49
I put it on my active system to test the top end and I find it is an excellent performer in FR. At this point I am considering whether or not to leave it in the active setup or put it on the Econowave.

RTA at 1 meter/1.2k x-over/CX3400 active/BMS4550/waveguide 1 3/8" forward of baffle. Dip at 900Hz is due to room interaction at 1 meter, not crossover anomaly, rise peaking at 10kHz is due to my particular Behringer measurement mic, and is really not there. So the horn goes down at least to 1.2k and plays pretty flat upwards. My guess is it would work well in Econowave if the form factor is better for your box.
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E'Wave Active - An Approach

1) Two drivers, LE14A and D220Ti on standard E'Waveguide:

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2) Passive compensate the high frequencies. Bridged-T filter flattens the response with contoured midband attenuation (Blue,) and a series notch knocks down the 2 kHz peak. The resulting curve (Yellow) is dialable between 1.2 kHz and 1.8 kHz using the CX3400 active crossover with these drivers. Violet is 1.5 kHz (cursor) and occurs at the major divison between 1.2 kHz and 2.0 kHz on the CX3400 front panel:

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3) I chose 1.5 kHz, no delay required (Gray,) consistent with D220Ti spec. That's also where it all sounded best as I dialed the frequency around within that range:

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See Ttan98's cuves, above; my results are similar, +/- 2.5 dB. These'd be "Keepers." :thmbsp:

Edit: One click at a time, 1.2 kHz - 1.8 kHz, last six images below:

1132 Hz
1308 Hz
1450 Hz
[1508] Hz
1631 Hz
1710 Hz
1808 Hz

This LE14A rolls off precipitously above 1.6 kHz. See the raw driver response curve, first, above, Green.

If I was clever, I'd make an animation loop, but loading them all and clicking them in sequence effectively demonstrates what's happening as I dial the frequency control between those limits. Be sure to include 1508 Hz from above. :yes:

Speakergeek fun: Where would YOU set it? :thmbsp:

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Zilch, looks like your way of doing it works pretty good too. The LE14A is a lot easier to use as a woofer than the 2214H. The cheap JBL woofer from the Decade 38 really surprised me. It was decent, mated well, and sounded very good. Looks aren't everything, are they?

Does Clio get better readings than the Behringer RTA? It looks like you have a drop of about 8 db between roughly 6 KHz and 20 KHz. My RTA doesn't show that drop as being in the response of the D220Ti. What could cause this difference?

It looks like the response where the 2 KHz hump was corrected falls very fast as the crossover frequency is increased slightly, just as it did with the hi pass correction. The HF wave form goes from a sharp leading edged waveform to a large rounded off one over a very large frequency range as your crossover frequency is increased from 1132 to 1808 Hz..

I moved the 2214H's to the front of the baffle, but inset then about a tenth of an inch, so that they will clear the grille cloth. I plan to also inset the Waveguides about 1/4 inch, so they are just even with the front of the baffle. This will make it easier to adapt the present grilles, and also make the time delay a bit closer. You were correct, with the woofer on the outside, the time delay is almost exactly at zero.

How about showing us a schematic of your correction methods, so we may try it ourselves?
 
Zilch, looks like your way of doing it works pretty good too. The LE14A is a lot easier to use as a woofer than the 2214H. The cheap JBL woofer from the Decade 38 really surprised me. It was decent, mated well, and sounded very good. Looks aren't everything, are they?
Both JBL Pro and Consumer apparently know what they're doing in woofer design, and what are the rational compromises at different price points. Like their crossovers, the woofers are custom for the intended applications, but fortunately, there's often enough technical information available to provide guidance in using them for DIY. There are also "discoveries" to be made, like the fact that while JBL never made any closed-box products (other than some contemporary subs,) certain JBL woofers are well-suited to that use.

Does Clio get better readings than the Behringer RTA? It looks like you have a drop of about 8 db between roughly 6 KHz and 20 KHz. My RTA doesn't show that drop as being in the response of the D220Ti. What could cause this difference?
This series of measurements is all quasi-anechoic using time-windowed MLS to remove the influence of room reflections. RTA is "in-room" response, basically. If you EQ or comp flat in MLS, it will generate a downward-sloping response on RTA, generally accepted as desireable. Conversely, if you EQ or comp flat on RTA, it will be perceived as too "bright" by many listeners. That's why your DEQ2496 has a "Room correction" option in AutoEQ. Try that with any system to hear the ~1 dB/octave difference. :yes:

It looks like the response where the 2 KHz hump was corrected falls very fast as the crossover frequency is increased slightly, just as it did with the hi pass correction. The HF wave form goes from a sharp leading edged waveform to a large rounded off one over a very large frequency range as your crossover frequency is increased from 1132 to 1808 Hz.
Yes, it's a resonance, I believe, and "snaps" in and out depending upon whether there is enough energy at the requisite frequency to excite it, as you experienced dialing the frequency around. There's also a smaller one apparent at 4 kHz. Clearly, notching 2 kHz down has rendered this more manageable, and we're not locked into so narrow a range of frequencies to yield predictable results. Using the active crossover frequency to tame it is a crap shoot, in my view, whereas the objective here is to provide a wide range of adjustability for optimally matching E'Wave to woofers having different response capabilities.

I moved the 2214H's to the front of the baffle, but inset then about a tenth of an inch, so that they will clear the grille cloth. I plan to also inset the Waveguides about 1/4 inch, so they are just even with the front of the baffle. This will make it easier to adapt the present grilles, and also make the time delay a bit closer. You were correct, with the woofer on the outside, the time delay is almost exactly at zero.
Excellent! I will soon have my own upsized (and upscaled) Baronets here so we can do apples and apples with them. :thmbsp:

How about showing us a schematic of your correction methods, so we may try it ourselves?
I'm documenting that today, and I'll PM you what I have done, but it's not ready for prime time. My notch is brute force, so the impedance is probably quite nasty. Also, my Bridged-T compensation is not as optimum a contour as what you have already designed for this driver/waveguide combination. I'm just suggesting that you're not quite done yet. :p:

I can hear you groaning at the thought, but my purpose here is primarily to demonstrate that, additional components notwithstanding, there is substantial merit and value in addressing the compensation and the 2 kHz peak separately, and since you understand it far better than me, I'm hoping you might try this with the Pi-speaker compensation for an even better result. Perhaps a parallel notch is a better answer, if you can get the "Q" high enough. E'Wavers using the active approach are not going to have an issue with an additional $15 in component costs that yields a more universally applicable and more easily integrated "ideal" HF module....
 
here are the FR for both configigurations,

1. pink curve, using JBL x-over the said earlier, not ideal but adequate.
2. brown curve, using DCX x-over, sounds a lot better.

I must say bi-amp the speaker improves the speakers soundstage.

ttan98, I finally found the technical manual for the MR825, and checked it out. It seemed impossible to me that the response would be so good using a different crossover than what was designed for it. But it was pretty good, wasn't it? With the JBL crossover the response was definitely rising, which you cured with the electronic crossover.

I would guess that the 2373 horn used in the MR825 probably would perform much like the waveguide we used in the EconoWave. Maybe Zilch can tell us the difference between the two.
 
I would guess that the 2373 horn used in the MR825 probably would perform much like the waveguide we used in the EconoWave. Maybe Zilch can tell us the difference between the two.
I've never worked with 2373, but always viewed it as a downsized 2370 biradial, not among my favorites for 2-way.

Ttan98 can probably tell us more how they compare, but JBL migrated to the PT waveguide once it was designed, and I don't think that was just because it was cheap.... ;)
 
EconoWave Comparo

I received the Pyle Pro horns that were ordered from MCM which appeared to be made in the same tool as the JBL waveguides. They are pretty close in appearance and function, with only minor differences.

The Pyle uses a metal insert to screw the driver into, while the JBL uses plastic threads. The Pyle has slightly longer braces lengthwise on the back of the horn. JBL has a few small strengthening braces between screws, while the Pyle doesn't have them. The JBL rounded curves at the ends of the waveguide are somewhat different than Pyles, and look a bit more purposeful than Pyles, although any sonic difference is not apparent to me.

External dimensions are identical, with the exception of the longer side braces on the Pyle. One has replaced a JBL waveguide in my system, and seems to be functionally identical as well. Looks like another alternative for the JBL waveguide.

First pic is with Pyle on left, JBL on right. Second pic is of the business end of the JBL. The third pic is the end of the Pyle.
 

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The indentation at the "Bone" end appears to be deeper in the JBL, correlating with the brace length variation.

It'd be interesting to know the story, as PT is alleged in the literature to be proprietary.... :yes:
 
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