Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Russellc]

Well, you don't want to deviate significantly from the design spec, if possible. A pair of 10 uF would give 5 uF equivalent, so I tweaked the values a bit to get closer.

Another approach is to use series/parallel pairs, but then you've got four times as many caps instead of twice as many, and that can get out of hand fairly quickly....

No, I was further off than that, having only read a small amount concerning CC networks, I thought that all caps were simply doubled, i.e., instead of
one 4.7, you would use 2 and connect their juncture to the battery. Oh boy was I ever wrong! Thanks for the explaination! When I saw the cap values shown, I was lost! Now I see that by putting them in series, it really totals the same cap value as originally called for. Thanks.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Everyone needs to remember that the $300 doesn't include cabinets. I happened to have the cabinets from a previous project, so didn't count the cost of them in the Econowave price. Most DIY'ers probably have an old pair of cabinets laying around that would suffice.

And now, we are going to have the eCConowave. Wow, that blows my mind. These are supposed to be Econo, but they sound so nice, why not spend the extra money looking for that last bit of performance. With these guys, you can certainly afford to go the extra mile.

Lets us know how they sound, Russell.

I'll be ordering and will report what I hear. It will be awhile before I will have RTA and so forth.

As to the econowave being economical, I think this information is still good for the thread. Once others get their econowaves going, they may eventually want to improve on it a little. Afterall, not only is this thread about econowave, it has really transformed into a highly educational thread about crossovers and compensation and how it works. In that vein, nothing wrong with expanding further with more learning about how far econowave can go.

The dirt cheap original version is amazing, dont get me wrong! As to the project you built being 300 w/o the box, still, what a bargain! The 470 I quoted was for everything, and I never sawed wood. The 4647 was a craigs list buy at 300, plus about 170 for econowave driver, waveguide and crossovers. For less than a third of what I have in the A7s, and as much as I love what A7s do, I will have to concede what Zilch told me would happen, has happened....they walked all over the A7s. At least for my "in home" use.

Russellc

 

[mightym]

I'm trying to cross two threads from two different Forums, in otherwords, add 2+2, and get more than 4.

Over on DIY Audio, there's a huge thread about Terry Cains Abbey's, called BIB's ( Bigger Is Better ). It's basically a folded Quarterwave Back loaded horn. They're designed as " full range " cabinets. A while back someone got an Eminence CX 12 wideranger simmed, and built with an FT17 fostex tweeter, in fact, more have been built since. It's got a huge footprint, and takes 5sheets of ply to build a pair very low WAF.To the point, my crazy idea is to marry this BBBIB ( bigger badder Bigger is Better ) to the Econowave.

What I have in mind is a Goldwood Newport 10090, 10" woofer with the appropriate Econowave XO. some specs: 95Db SPL, .25 Qts, 1.89'^3 Vas, 40-4K range.

Does this sound totally loopy?

Planned use is HT mains, with an HT receiver 100 WPC.

I'm still looking for a performance graph on the woofer, PE doesn't show one I could find, I'm gonna see what I can google up.

I'm seeking comments from those who are experienced, and not a noob like me....

John

 

[Zilch]

Does this sound totally loopy?

Planned use is HT mains, with an HT receiver 100 WPC.

I'm guessing it'll work.

When the "Full Range" guys start givin' you a rash of poop about it, just crank 'em up.... :thmbsp:

I must say this thread scrambled my head more than any I have read in a VERY long time! I'm reasonably technical....I am pretty decent with a soldering iron but my exposure and understanding of sound theory is apparently critically limited, LOL....

There's certainly more to loudspeakers than most imagine.

Fun part is how good they can be built by any of us armed with a bit of knowledge of the fundamentals from here on AK.... :yes:

 

[Russellc]

I'm guessing it'll work.

When the "Full Range" guys start givin' you a rash of poop about it, just crank 'em up.... :thmbsp:

There's certainly more to loudspeakers than most imagine.

Fun part is how good they can be built by any of us armed with a bit of knowledge of the fundamentals from here on AK.... :yes:

Isnt that the truth!:yes: I've been on a few" build it from article" instructions type of projects, i.e., focal and DiAppolitio designs, some signifigantly more expensive, ( and that was 8-10 years ago) and none have been as impressive as this project, which even in todays money is a song when compared to what one would have to spend to get the equivalent commercially. great project, great thread!:thmbsp:

Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

What I have in mind is a Goldwood Newport 10090, 10" woofer with the appropriate Econowave XO. some specs: 95Db SPL, .25 Qts, 1.89'^3 Vas, 40-4K range.

Does this sound totally loopy?
.

John

Hi John,

The two experiences that I have had using Goldwood products were both surprisingly good. It should sound very nice.

Let us know, if you build them. And incude pictures, as well.

 

[ttan98]

This is not a criticism but a highlight of what is happenig to Dr.Gedlee's waveguide 2-way speaker kit. It is currently experiencing quality problems with its cabinet. It costs $1200 per pair by no means cheap.

Go to DIYAudio under Nathan 10 thread for details.

 

[dc270]

Would the JBL 2418H drivers from the original Eon series be suitable drivers for the project here? The drivers ended up being donors and I wanted a suitable project for them, also have a couple of the Pyle horn lens that appear very similar to the JBL types WG's. If these will function suitably together then I guess I am over half way there! If needed I could ship one set of these to someone here for testing purposes as an alternative to what's been proposed in the JBL product line. Thanks for any thoughts here if possible.
DC

 

[GordonW]

Would the JBL 2418H drivers from the original Eon series be suitable drivers for the project here? The drivers ended up being donors and I wanted a suitable project for them, also have a couple of the Pyle horn lens that appear very similar to the JBL types WG's. If these will function suitably together then I guess I am over half way there! If needed I could ship one set of these to someone here for testing purposes as an alternative to what's been proposed in the JBL product line. Thanks for any thoughts here if possible.
DC

Well... to put forward a WAG (wild a** guess)... I would think that it might likely work.

IME, the JBL 2418 sounds a lot like the Selenium D210TI... we've used the Seleniums to replace 'em sometimes, when people come in with missing drivers in the JBL cabinets.

And, here's a thought- the 2418 is, IIRC, one of the drivers JBL used on that type waveguide originally, in some of the MR-series cabinets. So, if the Econowave crossover doesn't work, there's likely a crossover iteration (meaning, some tweaks or alterations necessary) that WILL work...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[dc270]

Thanks Gordon, looks like this could then be a go then! I really like the idea that I probably have the basic components then all I do is tweek them to sound like they were meant to be together. I have never used that particular horn so any information was appreciated!
The guy ended up leaving & owing me money so I figure his trashed EON's he left in partial trade would be good for something. I got the power amps, boards, toroidals and the horn drivers from the cabs (woofers were toast) so that should get me some pieces for starting new projects with. I guess this could be the "B" version of the EW!
Thanks again Gordon-
DC

 

[djnagle]

Hi Zilch, I plan on building a pair of these for my daughter this winter but until then, I want to play with the JBL 1" thread-on Progressive Transition lenz. As you might remember, I have Jensen Imperial cabs with EV woof, mid and tweet. The mid is the 8hd with T25 driver. Will the JBL lenz sound better with the T25 than the 8hd lenz? The 8hd/T25 is crossed at 800hz and 3600hz. Cheers.

 

[skywave-rider]

Would the JBL 2418H drivers from the original Eon series be suitable drivers for the project here? The drivers ended up being donors and I wanted a suitable project for them, also have a couple of the Pyle horn lens that appear very similar to the JBL types WG's. If these will function suitably together then I guess I am over half way there! If needed I could ship one set of these to someone here for testing purposes as an alternative to what's been proposed in the JBL product line. Thanks for any thoughts here if possible.
DC

I think JackGiff's most recent build used the Pyle horns. Believe he characterized them as virtually interchangeable.

 

[Zilch]

Hi Zilch, I plan on building a pair of these for my daughter this winter but until then, I want to play with the JBL 1" thread-on Progressive Transition lenz. As you might remember, I have Jensen Imperial cabs with EV woof, mid and tweet. The mid is the 8hd with T25 driver. Will the JBL lenz sound better with the T25 than the 8hd lenz? The 8hd/T25 is crossed at 800hz and 3600hz. Cheers.

800 Hz is a "Push" for PT Waveguides, but for $9.90 apiece, worth a try. It may be better than the original EV horn, anyway. It's better than Altec horns above 1.2 kHz... :yes:

Would the JBL 2418H drivers from the original Eon series be suitable drivers for the project here?

2418H is an "Entry level" JBL titanium-diaphragm compression driver (there are others). As Gordon suggests, JBL makes some good product with with them, and they are certainly compatible with the E'Wave PT Waveguide (and equivalent). You may need to tweak the HF compensation for them to work optimally, is all.

Jack and I designed E'Wave as an introduction to the technology, and I'm sure he will join me in enthusiastically encouraging others to experiment with the concepts documented in this thread.... :thmbsp:

 

[Zilch]

This is not a criticism but a highlight of what is happenig to Dr.Gedlee's waveguide 2-way speaker kit. It is currently experiencing quality problems with its cabinet. It costs $1200 per pair by no means cheap.

Go to DIYAudio under Nathan 10 thread for details.

I am sorry to read that. Geddes needs a break in the marketplace.

"I am a Physicist, not a machinist or carpenter."

The problem is apparent in his capitalization of "Physicist."

He's trying to build these kits on the cheap in his garage.

Look back to his early design proposals for the kit - a 3/4" bafle with a 1" roundover.

This has been a oft-traveled path for Earl, alas, and he's certainly not going to listen to me....

 

[djnagle]

True, at that price, I cant go wrong and I can always use them for my daughters system this winter. Cheers.

 

[ttan98]

I am sorry to read that. Geddes needs a break in the marketplace.

"I am a Physicist, not a machinist or carpenter."

The problem is apparent in his capitalization of "Physicist."

He's trying to build these kits on the cheap in his garage.

Look back to his early design proposals for the kit - a 3/4" bafle with a 1" roundover.

This has been a oft-traveled path for Earl, alas, and he's certainly not going to listen to me....

Precisely.

At that price he should at least include a decent cabinet. Speaker cabinet from PE is of very high quality at a reasonable price, why can't he ask a woodwork/cabinet manufacturer to make cabinets for him at a reasonable price. I am sure there are many around even in the State he resides.

Poor quality cabinet takes up too much of his valuable time answering questions from customers also giving other potential customers bad impressions. With the hours saved he can spend the time selling more kits.

End of discussion for me.

 

[ttan98]

Update on Econowaveguide in JBL cabinet
----------------------------------------

After some experimentation I decide to mount the econowaveguide on the JBL cabinet for simplicity and looks.

There was not that much difference in the sound quality inside and out of the cabinet, I took some photos but I have some problems downloading to my laptop so that I can upload to this site.

I use DC2496 as active x-over and drive the JBL woofer and D220Ti using 2 amps. The x-over freq is 1.7Khz HP and 1.3Khz LP both BW 3rd order. Overall sound is quite good, very close to my open baffle. I am not sure whether to sell it or retain it, if I do I may design a passive x-over to see whether they are really better than the DCX.

Anyway, Zilch thanks again.

 

[Zilch]

At that price he should at least include a decent cabinet. Speaker cabinet from PE is of very high quality at a reasonable price, why can't he ask a woodwork/cabinet manufacturer to make cabinets for him at a reasonable price. I am sure there are many around even in the State he resides.

Several members local to him have offered to quote CNC machining of the flats. He also acknowledges that they can be purchased very economically in quantities of 100 pcs. He's going to do it his way, no matter what, though, the same as he has for the last 20 years. I can only hope he works through these problems more successfully this time.

He also claims he can "fix" the on-axis response anomaly with an axi-asymmetric version. I'm not so sure he can, because it was also there in his earlier attempts using that approach, just at a higher frequency. No matter, it's not a compromise he's willing to make, despite the additional design considerations discussed earlier in this thread. It's more expeditious to pretend the issue is of no consequence if one doesn't listen on axis, apparently, along with the associated "more perfect" rationale.... :yes:

 

[Kegger]

OH GREAT JUST WHAT I NEED ANOTHER PROJECT! But what has transprired here has me intrigued!

Couple questions about a few drivers if you don't mind and if anyone knows about them, please.

First woofers, I've got 2 different 10"s I'd be pondering, one is from the JBl L56, the other one is
from the pioneer HPM 60? (a pair of each)

HF drivers, I imagine I'll eventually get the seleniums but I do have a pair from the klipsch RF7 an
the eminence PSD-2002 compression drivers. (a pair of each)

I may have a pair (got a check there shape) of the 12" drivers from the HPM 100 as well here to.

Anyways nice looking outcome I see here in many different configs, Congrats!

 

[dc270]

As a thought, (I just seem to have way to many) Can the waveguide be used in an M/WG/M arrangement? I ask because of the four CV cast frame 10" woofers laying around recently refoamed, looking for suitable homes. Tall thin cabs to get up to sitting ear level, etc. Again your open thoughts are apreciated. Evolution, ain't it great!
DC