Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[jackgiff]

Yes, an excellent candidate. I upgraded L77 with a Fostex tweeter at 2.5+ kHz here:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1486848

Scroll up to #49 for LE10A and LE10H curves.

LE10A/H is a LHF favorite woofer.... :thmbsp:

Bless your heart. It just seemed like if the LHF site didn't have the desired info on their search system, that Zilch would have an answer. I love the response of the Goldwood woofers in the latest iteration, but have always wanted to try the LE10's. I gave up on trying to put the LE14A's in them, since the total room for errors is approximately zero. They would fit, but barely. Oh well, the LE14A's will be saved for the Altec Seville Cabinets in another Econowave to be built whenever possible.

The 10" Goldwoods will be used to build my nephews speakers, since they have been tested with Goldwood silk dome tweeters, and make an absolutely stunning combination.

Thanks for the quick answer.

 

[archie2]

D123 will work, but I've never been able to get big or deep bass out of them. From discussions of that driver over on LHF, nobody else has, either. I've been wanting to try a 2.5 tower approach, as I have a poo pot of them around here.

123A (-1/-3), the L100 woofer, used in a closed box, 1.4 - 3 cuft., is a killer combo with E'Wave. Four or five of us have built with those to date. Same with 2212/2213/H, the JBL Pro editions of that driver.... :thmbsp:

I can't get deep bass out of the D123's either.

 

[djnagle]

The D123 is a GREAT midbass driver. If you don't have a sub backing it up, you will not be satisfied with the bass responce. If you have good subSSSS, the D123 is a great tight detailed midbass driver and worthy of your attention. Cheers.

 

[jackgiff]

OK, just bought a pair of LE10H's.

Bought a pair on E-Bay which need refoaming for $78. What pair of JBL's doesn't need refoaming? Ordered a pair of Rick Cobb's foams, which should be here before the speakers. Can't wait to try them. They have intrigued me for some time.

As Zilch showed, they perform very nicely out to about 2.5 KHz. Just what the doctor ordered.

 

[mightym]

BIB/Econowave polyglot

I wrote Goldwood, and they responded with the attached info on the woofer that I thought looked good on paper.

The performance graph isn't pretty. I'm wondering how much, if any, effect the Backloaded Horn would have on woofer performance. I know that the horn will to some degree " load " the cone, lowering Fs, and controlling excursion. Would any one care to hazard a SWAG as to how it would affect the performance?

The nearly 10Db drop from 500Hz, to 1KHz according to my instrument chart is from C5, to C6 octave ( more or less ) on the piano keyboard. this is still too low for the Econowave to roll in.

I'm new to this design stuff, is this an insurmountable, give it up and look elsewhere problem?

 

[Russellc]

I wrote Goldwood, and they responded with the attached info on the woofer that I thought looked good on paper.

The performance graph isn't pretty. I'm wondering how much, if any, effect the Backloaded Horn would have on woofer performance. I know that the horn will to some degree " load " the cone, lowering Fs, and controlling excursion. Would any one care to hazard a SWAG as to how it would affect the performance?

The nearly 10Db drop from 500Hz, to 1KHz according to my instrument chart is from C5, to C6 octave ( more or less ) on the piano keyboard. this is still too low for the Econowave to roll in.

I'm new to this design stuff, is this an insurmountable, give it up and look elsewhere problem?

Doesnt look that horrible, plays out to 2K and then appears to start rolling off. Notch around 600-700Hz looks a little hairy, perhaps this can be equalized away?:scratch2:

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

"MI Driver" is your clue. It's a guitar speaker.

There's no knowing how it'll actually behave in detail 'til you do it, but I'd pass on that one.... :thumbsdn:

 

[Cosmos]

Is there a summary or re-cap of this project somewhere in this thread?

I think I might give it a try, not that I need more speakers... but if you guys think it has merit, I am in.

 

[Zilch]

Is there a summary or re-cap of this project somewhere in this thread?

The fundamentals are linked from Post #1.... :thmbsp:

 

[GordonW]

D123 will work, but I've never been able to get big or deep bass out of them. From discussions of that driver over on LHF, nobody else has, either. I've been wanting to try a 2.5 tower approach, as I have a poo pot of them around here.

A 2.5-way setup would be my approach, IMHO.

Tune both D123 woofers for maximum "tail length" on the bass (low box frequency- maybe like 30 Hz or so)... an "extreme EBS alignment", in essence. Then, passively cross one of them, lowpass, at right about the frequency where they START to rolloff on the bottom end (probably around 70-80 Hz or so, I'm guessing). Naturally, some tweaking of frequency and box tuning will be required- I don't know of any software program that models THIS type of combination...

In essence, let the "helper woofer" be used to "prop up" the bass response, as it starts to roll off. Bet you can get usable bass into the 30s that way...

That's basically what I did with the two modified JBL M115-8A 15" woofers in my Seeburg project... and it DEFINITELY had low bass WHOMP!

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Russellc]

Is there a summary or re-cap of this project somewhere in this thread?

I think I might give it a try, not that I need more speakers... but if you guys think it has merit, I am in.

Very, Very worthwhile project. You will not be disappointed, and the cost is way too reasonable in relation to sound that can be gleened.

Russellc

 

[Cosmos]

The fundamentals are linked from Post #1.... :thmbsp:

Thanks Zilch! Somehow I missed it.. duh

Very, Very worthwhile project. You will not be disappointed, and the cost is way too reasonable in relation to sound that can be gleened.

Upon first read, I really understood this project to be a "let's build a really good set of $300-$400 speakers" (using already owned woofers). Upon further reading, it sounds like this project had a much higher target or at least result. In fact, it sounds like you guys have created a system that could be mains in a very high end system. Am I reading too much into it?

 

[djnagle]

Hi All, below is a pic of two cabs I have. I got them years ago and they were loaded with Stromberg Carlson co-ax drivers. I have since blown both drivers so these sit empty. They are built with 1" ply wood and are rock solid. The inside volume is 1.5 cubic feet. What woof would you recommend for these cabs. Of course I would install the waveguide above the woof. Cheers. p.s., they are sealed cabs.

 

[Zilch]

Perspective:

Upon further reading, it sounds like this project had a much higher target or at least result. In fact, it sounds like you guys have created a system that could be mains in a very high end system. Am I reading too much into it?

It's a modern two-way design approach using compression driver/waveguide with HF compensation, which Jackgiff and I have been doing for several years, now. We worked out this version, EconoWave, using entry-level components so that just about anyone could build it for under $200 using woofers and boxes on hand or easily acquired for next to nothing.

Two-ways of this general type have a long-standing tradition in Lansing heritage, JBL and Altec. JBL's current TOTL $60,000/pair Everest II is an example utilizing the dual 2.5 woofer approach Gordon just described at Post #670 here.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Product Information/Brochure_Everest_Eng.pdf

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=IWi8OZCt-QM

My own work with more "pedestrian" components is documented on LHF; it grew so big that it had to be split into multiple threads with a table of contents over there:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901

Jackgiff is our most skilled practitioner of the art of adaptive reuse of existing systems with these principles, and others have built stunning systems from scratch using SOTA components. The sky's the limit, but EconoWave itself represents a huge leap in performance well within the means of most AKers willing to make the effort to build it.... :yes:

 

[jackgiff]

I wrote Goldwood, and they responded with the attached info on the woofer that I thought looked good on paper.

The performance graph isn't pretty.

On Sunday the Goldwood 10090 really had me thinking about trying them. Then I entered it's T/S parameters into WinISD, and ran it's performance in a 1.6 cubic foot cabinet. The performance left a lot to be desired, according to WinISD. Ended up buying a pair of JBL LE10H's on E-Bay.

WinISD showed the same drop in bass output as the curve reported by Goldwood. Zilch noted that it is a musical instrument speaker, but the page with that note refers to it as a 10080, not 10090. Do they know what they are doing?

The GW10-PC plays absolutely great in 1.6 cubic feet, so they will be replaced in the Baronets with the JBL's, and the GW10-PC's will become the woofers in my nephews speakers, which are under construction. They will mate with a Goldwood silk dome tweeter, and they sound exquisite together. David, my nephew, is all atwitter. They will be venereed in bubinga. Finally learned the easy way to veneer the inside of the cabinets fronts is to veneer them before assembly. DUUHHH!

 

[Zilch]

Hi All, below is a pic of two cabs I have. I got them years ago and they were loaded with Stromberg Carlson co-ax drivers. I have since blown both drivers so these sit empty. They are built with 1" ply wood and are rock solid. The inside volume is 1.5 cubic feet. What woof would you recommend for these cabs. Of course I would install the waveguide above the woof. Cheers. p.s., they are sealed cabs.

It'd be cool if you built along with Jack using LE10H or H-1, I'd say.... :thmbsp:

 

[mightym]

Russelc,Zilch,Jackgiff

Thanks for the reply's. Your collective opinions served to galvanize mine, which was to look further.

I've seen response curves on a number of raw drivers that had canyon like dips of 10Db, yet were purported to sound good "in cabinet". Is this pretty unusual, or judicious filtering/ XO's?

Jackgiff, I looked at the Goldwoods you are using, I think that I passed on them originally because I wanted a little higher efficiency, and lower Qts. I ran them through the BIB calculator, and they don't look bad. Most sims for the BIB's will return with a ~5Db overall increase in Efficiency, I will have to mull it but they might work for my use too! Thanks. Does this mean I should now consider the <95Db XO?

In case it doesn't get said enough, giant pats on the back to you gent's, for taking the time to guide a noob on a quest like this.

 

[Russellc]

Thanks Zilch! Somehow I missed it.. duh



Upon first read, I really understood this project to be a "let's build a really good set of $300-$400 speakers" (using already owned woofers). Upon further reading, it sounds like this project had a much higher target or at least result. In fact, it sounds like you guys have created a system that could be mains in a very high end system. Am I reading too much into it?

Not at all, in fact it may be an understatement!:yes: I can guarantee its an eye opener.

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

I've seen response curves on a number of raw drivers that had canyon like dips of 10Db, yet were purported to sound good "in cabinet". Is this pretty unusual, or judicious filtering/ XO's?

You can't "fix" a hole like that without throwing away efficiency, or designing around it. That's not a detail. It's something they WANT in the intended application.

People pretend stuff sounds good all the time, often punctuated with a generous slather of "Trust your ears; it's the MUSIC, stupid!"

Zilch don't play that, nope. Why start out with such a design "issue...?" :thumbsdn: ]

 

[jackgiff]

Jackgiff, I looked at the Goldwoods you are using, I think that I passed on them originally because I wanted a little higher efficiency, and lower Qts. I ran them through the BIB calculator, and they don't look bad. Most sims for the BIB's will return with a ~5Db overall increase in Efficiency, I will have to mull it but they might work for my use too! Thanks. Does this mean I should now consider the <95Db XO?

The GW10-PC may just be at the break point for choosing a crossover design, but it's SPL seems to be a bit lower than quoted, but not by much. The added 5 DB would put it just within the top of the range for the <95 DB crossover, and that is where the best starting place would seem to me. I hope you try it, and are as pleased as I am with it's performance. For the price, it seems to be a winner. Keep us posted if you try it, please.