Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[WoweeZowee]

After lurking in this thread for a while, I think I am starting to understand the design concept of the waveguide. What I'm still missing is what LF drivers will work best with this configuration.

I would very much like to try building a set of these, however I was wondering if using an 8" or 10" driver is a viable option. Does the relatively low SPL of 86dB for the 8" HiVi M8N remove it from the list? How about using two 8" drivers to obtain an SPL of 89db?

Another driver, the Dayton RS270S-8 10" woofer has a bit more SPL at 90.5dB, but this is still well short of the 95dB point used to separate the drivers in two crossover categories earlier in the thread.

Then again maybe this is just a foolish question and there's a reason that I have only seen 12" and 15" drivers being discussed in this thread. Either way, I hope someone can clarify this for me.

I understand now. Initially I didn't see/know what the L-pad was in the crossover designs.

 

[djnagle]

Hi W, I have only had horns and in each system, the horn needs to be padded down to match the woof. The cabs I have now are already cut for 12" woofs so that is what I am looking for. Cheeers.

 

[Zilch]

The cabs I have now are already cut for 12" woofs so that is what I am looking for. Cheeers.

12"?

2213H closed, 128H-1, 2214H(-1), vented.

Gordon may have some other suggestions....

 

[Zilch]

Then again maybe this is just a foolish question and there's a reason that I have only seen 12" and 15" drivers being discussed in this thread. Either way, I hope someone can clarify this for me.

8s and 10s are fine, 6s even. You pick the filter version according to the woofer sensitivity. 12s give bigger bass, generally, is all, but that varies with the specific driver and alignment you use.... :yes:

 

[Russellc]

You can't "fix" a hole like that without throwing away efficiency, or designing around it. That's not a detail. It's something they WANT in the intended application.

People pretend stuff sounds good all the time, often punctuated with a generous slather of "Trust your ears; it's the MUSIC, stupid!"

Zilch don't play that, nope. Why start out with such a design "issue...?" :thumbsdn: ]

This is exactly what is bugging me. No one else has tried the 4647 w/ 2225H
and I'm wondering how close I am through the crossover region.

Looking at the JBLpro site under vintage, there is a response curve shown with a 5 cu ft box (same as mine) and both sealed as well as vented, tuned to 40 hz which is also like mine.

The response begins to rise ( on axis curve) around 500hz and peakes about 2.5 to 3.0 db at 1600 hz or so, then tails off. The 45 degree off axis response shows the driver begining to drop around 500hz, and tailing off from there. Is the hump sufficient that I should lower the low pass crossover point towards 900hz like was done with other JBL drivers in this thread, or would just listening a little off axis cure this problem?

On the LH forum site under transducers there is a little info on the 2235H. The response graph is marked with " 10 ft3" which I suppose means 10 cu ft box, not what I have anyway, so I dont know if this info is really comparable.
It shows response to be flat to about 4-4.5 khz, then a slight rise from 5-9 khz, then tails off. Looks like a better candidate, but info suggests crossover no higher than 1,000hz.

Without an RTA, and no way to obtain one soon, I am wondering if I am pretending it sounds good as you pointed out, or am even close in the cross over region?

Zilch, 4647 is one of your faves, how about a work up of one with either 2225H or 2235H? I for one would really appreciate it!:yes:
Any guidance from anyone would be appreciated, without the RTA I am flying blind. I have several AK members in my area I want to hear these and I want them to hear them right.:thmbsp:

By the way, my CC crossover parts came yesterday and hopefully this weekend I can begin assembly of another of my ugly looking crossovers!

Thanks in advance,
Russellc

 

[GordonW]

12"?

2213H closed, 128H-1, 2214H(-1), vented.

Gordon may have some other suggestions....

Just an expansion of the 128-family... 122A, 126A, 129H are also good.

The Altec 414 should also work well... as might the foam-surround version of the EV 12L... can't remember the model of that one, though. The EV and Altec woofers, and the 2214H and 2213, have higher efficiencies... so they require less padding down of the horn...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Zilch]

Zilch, 4647 is one of your faves, how about a work up of one with either 2225H or 2235H? I for one would really appreciate it!:yes:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=127996#post127996

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7480

 

[Russellc]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=127996#post127996

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7480

Well, I did learn that it looks like I need a zobel, 33uf and 7 ohms, but what I meant is with econowave. Its crossover is different than the ones in those reads. also looks interesting to use 2425H w/3110A crossover, but that is optimized for 2370 as I understand it. What sort of libation would convince a test run with econowave on top of the 4647?

I REALLY need RTA, bu must sell one of my two dam houses before I have any play money.

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

I wanted to illustrate the differences in response for 2225H vs. 2235H. I have no 2225s anymore; they've all been, uhm, "converted...."

 

[Russellc]

I wanted to illustrate the differences in response for 2225H vs. 2235H. I have no 2225s anymore; they've all been, uhm, "converted...."

That's fine, I'm going to convert my spare pair, and will be in the same boat as far as econowave is concerned once I've done that. I do have x-over parts for the 4430, as well as the aformentioned 2425H and 2344 horn, but I'm far from being done econowaving, I'm just against the wall. 2235H econowave would be a killer with the crossover tweaked specifically for this application. Still somewhat econowave for those with acess to some shot 2225H, which seem to be plentifull.:yes: Now to build the CC crossover!

Russellc

 

[jackgiff]

Received the foam surrounds today at around 11 AM in the mail, and about 2 PM, UPS delivered the LE10H's that were bought on E-Bay. These guys are very nice. They sure do make noise at 30 Hz. Pretty amazing for a 10 incher. Haven't heard music through them yet, but they will perform.

My home theatre is built in mesquite cabinets, and uses Trusonic drivers. Tonight, the clearances were checked for putting EconoWaves in to the front cabinets, and it looks like they will fit. The center channel speaker will hold the LE10H OK, but a smaller waveguide will be needed. The rear cabinets are just sitting in raw inventory (lumber), so they can be built to fit the LE10 Econowave, I think, although a smaller waveguide would do nicely there too..

Might as well use something I had a hand in designing, don't you think? Besides they just sound so darn righteous.

 

[Zilch]

Show the back side of those puppies, Jack.

[Nice score for $78+.... :thmbsp: ]

 

[Greyhawk17]

Jack/Zilch.....

Howdy,
From the front those look similar to JBL, LE-111A's from the L-110's, would
that be a workable/good choice also.....Thanks, T

 

[GordonW]

Howdy,
From the front those look similar to JBL, LE-111A's from the L-110's, would
that be a workable/good choice also.....Thanks, T

LE111 == LE10, from any practical standpoint. They'll work.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Zilch]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10663

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10666

 

[jackgiff]

Pix of motors.

Zilch asked for pix of the backs of the LE10H's, so here they are. Also a pic of the Baronet with them installed, and an FR. Wow, they sound so very sweet. The bass is not as low as the LE14A's, but is extremely detailed. You can almost count the bristles when the drummer brushes the cymbals. Extremely nice stuff.

And the motors make me want to gush M words. Like, magical melodies. Massive magnets. Major motors. Mammoth music. Melodious... Oh well, you get the picture.

Do they sound better than the Goldwoods? HMMmmm. They really seem to, but I am not sure. They do make about 3-5 Db more sound, which is good at matching the present crossovers settings. Mid range on the L-Pad. The bass sounds a little more pure, tight, and fast, but not by an awful lot. And maybe it is psychological with me. I simply have fallen in love with JBL's woofers. If you want an economical pair of 10 inch modern woofers, the Goldwood GW-10PC would be my choice. But for vintage, go with LE10A's. LE10H's, or LE111H's.

After getting another pair of LE10H's, I am going to promote the poop out of them. But not till then, since we don't need any more bidders going against me.

We should probably alert any potential bidders for LE111's, that the LE111A is not the same cat as the LE111H. There are some differences in the T/S parameters, and it doesn't plot as good in the bass department. Sort of like the Goldwood GW 10090. Buyer beware.

And the next to last pic is one of my nephews speakers being tested to finalize the crossover values. He is going to be thrilled. These Fat Boys sound very nice, as well. The bubinga will look much better when oiled, but it needs to sit, cure, dry or whatever it does for a week before oiling. Otherwise the veneer may peel.

 

[jackgiff]

It only gets better and better.

Well, most of this afternoon was spent sitting in JackLab (my garage) listening to the Baronets with LE10H's. I know that there is absolutely no scientific reason to think that capacitors or wire actually "break in", and probably as little scientific proof that speaker surrounds do it. But as the afternoon wore on, the LE10H's just kept sounding better and better. The bass was very detailed right from the get go, but not as deep as would be desired. Now they are sounding just righteous. Mama says it is probably the scotch I have been imbibing, and maybe she is correct.

Tomorrow the FR's will be remeasured, and the cabinets tuning may be changed. They were tuned at 30 Hz for the Goldwoods, but JBL probably has a different idea about tuning for their drivers. Maybe Zilch can jump in and tell me what the 4313B was tuned at. That will save me some search time.

Anyway, the 10 inch woofer has been redeemed in my eyes. Love that magnum motored LE10H.

 

[Zilch]

Maybe Zilch can jump in and tell me what the 4313B was tuned at. That will save me some search time.

I don't know, actually. Someone on LHF can at least give you the duct dimensions, probably.

******

Skywave's in Tokyo auditioning JBL Everest II.

I want to know how those stand up to his EconoWave dumpster bins....

 

[jackgiff]

Another finished EconoWave project.

The Lansing Heritage site was searched to try to find the tuning frequency for the 4313B monitor, but with no luck. Looking at the WinISD plot for the LE10H in 1.67 cubic feet tuned at 30 Hz didn't look all that good however. WinISD wanted the cabinet tuned at 36 Hz for the best looking plot for bass reproduction.

The 30 Hz tuning was done with 2 inch ports on the back, but for 36 Hz, three inchers were better. The ports were replaced this morning, and now the JBL definitely sounds better than the Goldwood.

 

[jaybird]

Just got my selenium drivers but I ordered the 16 ohm ones, what changes in the x/o will I have to make ?