Tube Radio
Super Member
For about the same price you could build a pair of speakers that would sound way better than those.
Zu
- Thread starter BHamm
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Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Why must they be...just curious?
Hopefully not because they give vague specs like about half of the other manufacturers. John DeVore isn't specific either and his speakers sound excellent.
Remember guys this is just a bit of the devils advocate here because I'm not invested in whether someone buys Zu or not.
Tube Radio
Super Member
I wouldn't mind hearing a pair so that I could form a proper opinion about them. What would be interesting is if someone hooked up a pair of Zu speakers to an amp and used a stereo 31 band eq just to see if it were possible to eq them to sound decent.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Just as a frame of reference the Druids have always been the most controversial (read lots of people hate 'em) of Zu's speakers.
Tube Radio
Super Member
Yup. After I built my first pair of speakers I decided then that I would never again buy a prebuilt speaker.
I think it's funny that a company felt that the Druid was so awesome they paid money to have them shipped and demoed at an audio show. If I were a speaker designer (big "if", i know...) and the end result of my efforts was the Druid, I would not proclaim my work "done". I certainly would not want anyone else to hear the fruits of my labor, either! I would also argue that while one might argue that the rest of the product line is radically different, you will note that it came from the same decision making process that created the Druid. There are so many nice speakers, why not explore a product line of a company that produced something you liked in the first place? If I have a bad meal at a new restaurant, it doesn't compel me to immediately come back and try something else.
FWIW, I wanted to *love* the Druid: Hi-eff, good WAF, American Made, good ergonomics, etc. At the end of the day tho, Dave is right: The only thing that sounded worse than the Druid was it's accompanying "subwoofer". (I'm laughing as I type that! See, Zu does make me happy, in a tragic-comic sorta way.)
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Personally, I couldn't care less about specs. Especially from a company that simply has to be lying about their specs. As far as I know, modern physics and state of the art audio design would not allow their claims to be true.
I trust what I hear. I also trust several people's ears in this thread. I know they hear well and know what to listen for/to. I trust them because I know them personally and their tastes are similar to mine. I trust their opinion far more than I would trust $tereophools, who hasn't been trusted by me since Holt left.
That's good enough for me... several times over. It would take me listening to them for me to change that opinion, something I am willing to endure for the heck of it, but based on the above, I'd guess I'd leave the test prior to getting engraved by their horrid sound..
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Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Hmm, the only opinion I trust relative to my preferences is my own. There are several people here I like but their preferences and mine may differ greatly. I actually have a greater frame of reference relative to the preferences and biases of several Stereophile and Absolute Sound writers as I've read their work for far longer than I've known anyone here. It's not a sin to read audio rags, especially when the final arbiter will be those on either side of your head. The sin comes when you trust their ears over your own.
barredowl
Before and after Science
Art K. one thing we can know a-prori about the Druid at least with 10 db+- anomalies over most the frequency spectrum and greater at the extremes is that a lot of the music is missing in action. Why would I want to pay a large amount of money for speakers that aren't representing the music accurately? That makes no sense at all. Especially when there are horn speakers that measure better and are just as efficient, and concentric speakers that are pinpoint sources. It's sort of snake oil that makes our hobby a laughing stick to some because they assume all audio lovers are deluded audiophiles who are taken in by marketing over research.. 
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Art K. one thing we can know a-prori about the Druid at least with 10 db+- anomalies over most the frequency spectrum and greater at the extremes is that a lot of the music is missing in action. Why would I want to pay a large amount of money for speakers that aren't representing the music accurately? That makes no sense at all. Especially when there are horn speakers that measure better and are just as efficient, and concentric speakers that are pinpoint sources. It's sort of snake oil that makes our hobby a laughing stick to some because they assume all audio lovers are deluded audiophiles who are taken in by marketing over research..
You can call me Art. The K is the first initial of my last name.
Just talking to folks I don't think our hobby is a laughing stock. Hell, hardly anyone but us knows anything about it.
Again keep in mind that I'm not selling Zu and don't care if anyone ever buys them.
Just as an FYI, no speaker is "representing the music accurately".
Listen to 5 "cost no object" designs by TAD, Magico, Sonus Faber, Magnepan and Harbeth (to name 5 of many...YG Acoustics, Audio Physic, MBL and so on). They may all sound fabulous and they may all give you a taste of live or accurate sound and on any given day one (reviewer or casual listener) might state that one or the other of these speakers represent music like no other...yep and not at all like each other.
Truth is, if any speaker were truly accurate and every other speaker didn't sound just like that one then all would be wrong but one...pretty simple really. Speakers, like all things audio is all about preference.
barredowl
Before and after Science
@Art
""Just as an FYI, no speaker is "representing the music accurately.""
That's quite literally untrue Art, a speaker that measures relatively flat that has been equalized to the room can represented live or recorded music very well indeed. I know because I've been there. And such a speaker, amp, source, eq and rta, hook up wires, etc, can all be purchased with a little judicious shopping for half what the Zu Super Fly costs alone. It bothers me that people are being lured by "audiophile" propaganda into buying overpriced equipment that does not represent the music accurately. IMO some of the marketing is borderline fraudulently criminal in nature.
p.s. some speakers *are* "wrong" in leaving out large parts of the frequency spectrum that constitutes the music, Zu seems to be one of the worst perpetrators of selling a "wrong" speaker to the credulous with slick marketing and meaningless "audiophile" buzz words. Just as I can know a car that only accelerated 0 to 30 in 20 seconds and that topped out at 55 mph isn't going to cut it on a modern American highways just from the numbers, so too can I know that the Zu druid is not in the ballpark even of playing back music accurately just by looking at the numbers. Would you buy a Soviet Lada because someone told you it had a "liquid" "engaging" road feel?
http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2006/09/19/soviet-cars-dump/
""Just as an FYI, no speaker is "representing the music accurately.""
That's quite literally untrue Art, a speaker that measures relatively flat that has been equalized to the room can represented live or recorded music very well indeed. I know because I've been there. And such a speaker, amp, source, eq and rta, hook up wires, etc, can all be purchased with a little judicious shopping for half what the Zu Super Fly costs alone. It bothers me that people are being lured by "audiophile" propaganda into buying overpriced equipment that does not represent the music accurately. IMO some of the marketing is borderline fraudulently criminal in nature.
p.s. some speakers *are* "wrong" in leaving out large parts of the frequency spectrum that constitutes the music, Zu seems to be one of the worst perpetrators of selling a "wrong" speaker to the credulous with slick marketing and meaningless "audiophile" buzz words. Just as I can know a car that only accelerated 0 to 30 in 20 seconds and that topped out at 55 mph isn't going to cut it on a modern American highways just from the numbers, so too can I know that the Zu druid is not in the ballpark even of playing back music accurately just by looking at the numbers. Would you buy a Soviet Lada because someone told you it had a "liquid" "engaging" road feel?
http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2006/09/19/soviet-cars-dump/
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Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
It's quite true. If one speaker is accurate (across the board) then any speaker that doesn't sound like it is inaccurate. So that begs the question, which is the accurate speaker?
"Representative" is quite different than accurate and again we get into perception and preference.
@Art
""Just as an FYI, no speaker is "representing the music accurately.""
That's quite literally untrue Art, a speaker that measures relatively flat that has been equalized to the room can represented live or recorded music very well indeed. I know because I've been there. And such a speaker, amp, source, eq and rta, hook up wires, etc, can all be purchased with a little judicious shopping for half what the Zu Super Fly costs alone. It bothers me that people are being lured by "audiophile" propaganda into buying overpriced equipment that does not represent the music accurately. IMO some of the marketing is borderline fraudulently criminal in nature.
p.s. some speakers *are* "wrong" in leaving out large parts of the frequency spectrum that constitutes the music, Zu seems to be one of the worst perpetrators of selling a "wrong" speaker to the credulous with slick marketing and meaningless "audiophile" buzz words. Just as I can know a car that only accelerated 0 to 30 in 20 seconds and that topped out at 55 mph isn't going to cut it on a modern American highways just from the numbers, so too can I know that the Zu druid is not in the ballpark even of playing back music accurately just by looking at the numbers. Would you buy a Soviet Lada because someone told you it had a "liquid" "engaging" road feel?
http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2006/09/19/soviet-cars-dump/
You can't negate the whole audiophile community based on one speaker, it represents nothing. A sample of exactly one, no more. Every component, new or old, pro or audiophile 'high-end' should be engaged on a one-on-one basis. To not do so is potentially missing out on the best sound you're ever likely to hear.
barredowl
Before and after Science
The accurate speaker is the one that has been tuned to the room, thus destroying another "audiophile" myth that which denigrates any tone control. I always knew there was a lot of fishy info out there, but learning to set up pro sound systems reveals that it's worse than I though even originally. And actually no a Zu couldn't likely even be EQed to be semi accurate as many EQs are +-6 db and the Druids have +- 10 db shifts.
Learning a little makes some people into experts. Learning a lot more makes those same people conscious of the fact that they will never know everything.
For what it's worth room correction software, and room correction itself, are not ignored by audiophiles. Lossy EQs with no hope of actually tackling a problem without creating a bigger one, are.
barredowl
Before and after Science
If the goal is to come as close as possible to representing live music as most "audiophiles" will claim it is, then feeding a high distortion low out output tube amp with no headroom for dynamic range into a poorly designed speaker with a ragged frequency responses not EQed to room anomalies is one of the worst possible approaches you could take. The misinformation perpetrated by the speciality high end rags does a real disservice to what could be a hobby where accurate sound *could* be available in an inexpensive fashion, but which isn't because apparently the profit margin isn't good enough for some people. x 100
x 100If the goal is to come as close as possible to representing live music as most "audiophiles" will claim it is, then feeding a high distortion low out output tube amp with no headroom for dynamic range into a poorly designed speaker with a ragged frequency responses not EQed to room anomalies is one of the worst possible approaches you could take. The misinformation perpetrated by the speciality high end rags does a real disservice to what could be a hobby where accurate sound *could* be available in an inexpensive fashion, but which isn't because apparently the profit margin isn't good enough for some people.
First, who are you to tell somebody what they enjoy?
Second, why do I routinely find myself in studios where the equipment out-costs almost everything I typically run into in an audiophile store? Where they've hired acoustic experts to control the room, at very high cost and in lieu of EQ seem to have tamed further problems with active crossovers into biamped speakers driven by gear such as Bryston (which you may recognize from the pages of those audio rags which are ripping everybody off)? Why do these same studios employ some of the same amps and monitor speakers that are found in many high end systems? Do you think that in your couple of weeks at pro audio school that you have learned more than these people have? That a private studio would not find a cheaper way to do things if it is so readily available?
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
No doubt that the room plays a very important role in sound. But as you have stated not all speakers can be tuned to the room. Since not all speakers can be tuned to a room that still leaves the question of which speakers are accurate. Obviously you are saying that they must start with specific characteristics. What speakers meet your standards? That will help me get a frame of reference for what you are saying.
BTW I have a friend who owns a HiFi store and also sets up pro sound systems. To him they are two completely different things although he states that he has learned a lot by doing pro sound. He does not use tone controls in a home environment at all. In fact he uses minimum room treatment. That's his persepective and since he is not here to type it I will not try to state his position any more than that because I will likely misrepresent it by mistake.
BTW I have a friend who owns a HiFi store and also sets up pro sound systems. To him they are two completely different things although he states that he has learned a lot by doing pro sound. He does not use tone controls in a home environment at all. In fact he uses minimum room treatment. That's his persepective and since he is not here to type it I will not try to state his position any more than that because I will likely misrepresent it by mistake.
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