I know objectivists who would be embarrassed by the gall of some of the things you profess to know everything about. Many of these audiophile speakers are state of the art and designed through very objective means and measurement. My subjectivism ends with me. I buy gear based on sound design and people who practice science, while filling in with a hint of artistic license where science and reality don't measure together to their ears. That is the art of speaker design. It is why computers don't spit out speakers. Read up on Alon Wolf of Magico and see if you can call him subjective. Yet audiophiles drool over his speakers.
Zu
- Thread starter BHamm
- Start date
- Status
I know objectivists who would be embarrassed by the gall of some of the things you profess to know everything about. Many of these audiophile speakers are state of the art and designed through very objective means and measurement. My subjectivism ends with me. I buy gear based on sound design and people who practice science, while filling in with a hint of artistic license where science and reality don't measure together to their ears. That is the art of speaker design. It is why computers don't spit out speakers. Read up on Alon Wolf of Magico and see if you can call him subjective. Yet audiophiles drool over his speakers.
barredowl
Before and after Science
I beg to disagree John from what I can see there is a large segment of sociopathic marketers pushing "pretty" but thin sounding "audiophile" equipment on naive gullible consumers. Zu would be a good example, and it doesn't surprise me they are also a cable manufacture as the cable manufactures are some of the worst offenders. But rinse and repeat for tube amps, I thought one of the best larks ever in audio was when Bob Carver perfectly emulated expensive tube gear on relatively low end solid state gear and made fools of the charlatans. Steropile has had a grudge against him ever sense of course for exposing their chicanery. More of that please! Over priced tube amps, line conditioners, underengineered speakers like Zu, and cables are criminal IMO in the same way patent medicine was criminal. Unfortunately we have no new progressive movement to stop it, so apparently snake oil is going to prevail this time around. 
Last edited:
You can disagree all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you are forming an opinion based on nothing but your imagination.
Zu would be an exception to most of the highly respected gear. Most of what you are imagining the high end to be is the same gear that is not well respected, though there are some small monitors that get great reviews and for their intended use are great speakers, in my opinion. The little PSB Synchony stand mounts in a small room are amazing. I doubt Zu is respected widely, actually, for I've never heard of them being mentioned really outside of the internet.
So people are Charlatans because they like the sound of tubes? What is that all about? And why is Bob Carver making tube amps if they're a conspiracy? He's selling them off and on if you want to be taken in by his chicanery. They go for about 6 grand. If you could hear a pair of Atma-Sphere OTL monoblocks, and you thought they were smoke and mirrors, I'd question your reason for being in this hobby.
Which is why they did a write up on it,
http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/
and interviewed him later
http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/290bob_carver/
And more recently about his small ribbon speakers, but i can't find the interview.
Chicanery was passing off the Phase Linear 3000 as a musical reproduction device.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
I beg to disagree John from I can see there is a large segment of sociopathic marketers pushing "pretty" but thin sounding "audiophile" equipment on naive gullible consumers. Zu would be a good example, and it doesn't surprise me they are also a cable manufacture as the cable manufactures are some of the worst offenders. But rinse and repeat for tube amps, I thought of the best larks ever in audio was when Bob Carver perfectly emulated expensive tube gear on relatively low end solid state gear and made fools of the charlatans. Steropile has had a grudge against him ever sense of course for exposing their chicanery. More of that please! Over priced tube amps, line conditioners, underengineered speakers like Zu, and cables are criminal IMO in the same way patent medicine was criminal. Unfortunately we have no new progressive movement to stop it, so apparently snake oil is going to prevail this time around.
I was around and involved in this hobby when the Carver challenge was done. Bob did some serious mods on one of his amps to meet the challenge. I seriously doubt if production versions reach the 60dB (?) null of the unit Bob modified for and during the test.
As for specs telling everything. Compare the sound of a Crown IC-150 pre amp with any contemporary "high end" pre amp. If after doing so you think the Crown sounds as good or better than a high end competitor I have to agree with JohnVF about your hearing.
The Crown IC-150 has superb specs. It has extremely low distortion and a very high S/N ratio. It sounds truly awful. The first time I heard one was through Watson Model 10 speakers I thought it was broken or at minimum defective.
In the seventies I was on the specs mean everything train. I was introduced to gear with average specs that sound wise just sounded better. I don't ignore specs but I don't base my buying decisions solely on them. The sound of that IC-150 was enough to convince me there is more than specs.
BTW: I'm a retired Electrical Engineer. Specifications and other types of "techno babble" are not foreign to me. It's just that I've learned to trust my ears when I should and test gear when I should.
That was my experience with the Phase Linear Preamp. Measured well supposedly, and one of the most dreadful sounding things I've ever heard. Like nails on a chalkboard.
The IC-150 is not.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Takes all types here at AK...:yes:
Well this might as well be direct drive vs belt drive or tubes vs solid state or a cable debate. It's all about preference and the two sides will never see eye to eye.
I know what sounds good to my ears and after 37 years enjoying this hobby I should know my preferences pretty well. I've owned 20+ pair of Paradigm speakers (you know the well designed and engineered speakers that meet the measurement test) several pair of B&W's, 4 pair of Magnepans and at least 50 pair of other speakers.
I've been to more live concerts and handled more instruments than most but certainly not all. My background simply means I know what instruments sound like and I know what good HiFi sounds like.
I am not fooled by speakers that measure poorly and sound like ass anymore than I am by speakers that measure well and sound like ass (check out Harman's approach for a good dose of science gone wrong).
DeVore Silverbacks measured poorly and sound great...a whole bunch of Harman's present offerings measure well and sound like dirt. It is what it is. This is a hobby that no matter how objective you are it's the subjective listening test that determines your preferences, if it isn't then I'm not sure what more to say.
barredowl
Before and after Science
PSB speakers are engineered using Canada's national test labs ie they are made using scientific measuring to test their sound and then not sold at a overpriced price point, they are some of the good guys along with Paradigm and NHT, Harman, and yes Bob Carver. There are still audio companies using sound engineering but they are reviewed right along side the loon equipment like 5000 dollar 5 watt SET amps, 2500 dollar cables, Zu speakers, power conditioners, stones to place on your speakers, jitter clocks, etc, as though they all had the same merit, they do not. Subjectivism in audio (intentionally IMO) blurs the distinction between measurably good and measurably rotten in pursuit of a greasy buck.
Last edited:
Barredowl knows them better.
TerryO
Super Member
Alon Wolf was an amateur (diy) speaker builder when I met him on the old "Bass List" years ago. We corresponded over the years and he is very much the objectivist. He does, just like every other designer, make decisions and compromises in his speakers. The fact is that he makes really "Intelligent" decisions, while designers of the hypothetical speaker company (Pew) make decisions based on.........subjectivity? They can't be making very intelligent decisions, as the results actually suck, they measure really lousy and sound worse. Perhaps they actually "design them by ear", a notion that practically guarantees, at least some sales to the deluded and hard of hearing.
Best Regards,
TerryO
barredowl
Before and after Science
"It's all about preference and the two sides will never see eye to eye."
It's not all about prefernces when there is a 15 db suckout at 150 hz in a Zu Druid, you aren't hearing all of the bass player or drummer, period, end of story.
Fact!
It's all this, hey whatever maaaaaaan whatever you like bullshit even if the person hasn't trained their ears to hear massive suckouts of musical information that makes all the fraud possible.
It's not all about prefernces when there is a 15 db suckout at 150 hz in a Zu Druid, you aren't hearing all of the bass player or drummer, period, end of story.
Fact!
It's all this, hey whatever maaaaaaan whatever you like bullshit even if the person hasn't trained their ears to hear massive suckouts of musical information that makes all the fraud possible.
Last edited:
barredowl
Before and after Science
Thumbs up Terry O, that's what I am talking about. I
It's actually kind of staggering to me that anyone would defend a speaker that is not in the ballpark of representing the program material accurately. It's seems some people don't want to know what their recordings actually sound like, that's mysterious to me, wtf???????
It's actually kind of staggering to me that anyone would defend a speaker that is not in the ballpark of representing the program material accurately. It's seems some people don't want to know what their recordings actually sound like, that's mysterious to me, wtf???????
Nobody here is disagreeing with you on the Druids. They represent nothing.
ejfud
Audio Pinhead
Please forgive us, we all can't be as knowledgeable as you.
I'm always amazed here on Ak how many people think there is only one right way to reproduce music. I like to keep all avenues open. SET, SS, high efficiency, single driver and even some vintage. I've heard amazing setups with all and for me that's the fun part of this hobby, options.
I'm always amazed here on Ak how many people think there is only one right way to reproduce music. I like to keep all avenues open. SET, SS, high efficiency, single driver and even some vintage. I've heard amazing setups with all and for me that's the fun part of this hobby, options.
Ah...a refreshing voice of reason.:thmbsp:
barredowl
Before and after Science
There is a lot more where the Druids came from in cable reviews, speaker wire reviews, line conditioners reviews, "tice" jitter "clocks" 5000 dollar amps that provide no more current, wattage, or better specs than 500 dollar amps, tinny thin sounding bookshelf speakers, 5000 dollar CD players that use off the shelf chips and transports, etc, do you want to go over this months Stereopile article by article? I bet their are more b.s. reviews than sane ones.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
I'll take any pair of DeVore's I've listened to over any pair of Paradigm's I've owned.
I do enjoy Paradigm's better offerings (no I don't mean most expensive) as well as those of PSB. I've owned several pair of NHT's and had the Classic 3's here in my home for an audition. I've listened critically to damn near any brand you can list and owned at least one pair of many. our own experienced ears are the best measuring device we have to get to a place where we are satisfied with our own systems IMO.
In the end, none of us should be telling the other how they should be choosing speakers. We can make suggestions based on our experience however this hobby is a personal journey.
This is of course the perfect hobby to exacerbate OCD's and make anxious, crazy people even that much more crazy, I know, I speak from experience:scratch2:.
barredowl
Before and after Science
I know lets run a race and make sure none of the students feel left out, we'll say all the kids are wonderful and tried and deserve a gold star even the fat lazy kid who didn't try Zu. I think Tom may be onto something with his druggie brain damaged baby boomer theory.
- Status