Zu

[JohnVF]

Don't even get me started on people who wear ballcaps in restaurants. Or flip-flops.

You must love Chicago in the summer, then. What about folks who fly in their pajamas?

I don't pretend to think the hi end is perfect, but I lay the blame more on the consumers than the industry.

 

[barredowl]

I'm interested in your theory Tom , you can pm me if you don't want to post it here and if you have the time to expound further.

 

[JohnVF]

Great measuring gear equalized to a room doesn't sound like ass, that is factually incorrect, really. In the pro sound field where there is no room for b.s. they know better. If set tube amps, no tone controls or EQ, full range single driver speakers or small bookshelf speakers with no subs and other "high end" shibboleths, *really* deliver the goods how come you don't see them in either live venues or recording situations? When it comes to pro equipment bullshit walks. Home equipment could be manufactured to be MUCH more like pro equipment probably cheaper and people could be informed about the physics of sound propagation in home audio magazines instead of verbal wankery and we'd all be better off.

A lot of home equipment is manufactured like pro equipment. A lot of it isn't. The market creates itself and sustains itself. Both sides flourish with different audiences. It's a big tent, filled with both crazy and not so crazy.

Your argument is what they call a straw-man argument. The enemy is not like how you describe, at least not in its entirety. Sure there are foolish people. But great gear is just that...pro or consumer. And it's out there.

JLB L-series driven by a Marantz receiver is not great measuring gear in an equalized room. If you were to hear those setup against what I'm listening to right now, and picked them over it, I'd honestly question your hearing.

 

[dnewma04]

I've heard systems that were very flat (+/- 1dB) at the listening position in a room that sounded truly awful/unlistenable. Others that sounded amazing. Explain the phenomena please.

 

[barredowl]

People fly in pajamas? Seriously? Good thing I hate airplanes and haven't been in one for 25 years. I am pretty far left, but if true that's too slack and decadent for me to stomach.

 

[ejfud]

If I like the sound of a speaker that has poor measurements, does that make me wrong or uninformed? No it just means to my ears and brain, things just sound different to me than you. I don't care what the graph looks like. The end result is my satisfaction with my system.

Never heard a pair of Zu's so I can't talk on them.

 

[dnewma04]

Planes are uncomfortable enough for someone my height, I haven't worn pajamas, but I don't often wear something nicer than sweats.

 

[Tom Brennan]

You must love Chicago in the summer, then.

Oh yeah; most days I rode my bike down to 63rd St and back; often with a stop for a dip at the promotory in Hyde Park. Then I'd grab a bench by the Aquarium, light a stogie and people watch.

One thing about flip-flops; they make young women walk splay footed which makes them look kind of goofy. But the splay footedness also makes their butts stick out and that doesn't look goofy at all.

I don't pretend to think the hi end is perfect, but I lay the blame more on the consumers than the industry.

As do I.

 

[JohnVF]

You know, flying is objectively provable Barredowl. It's not subjective that its going to go up and come down, softely. You can do it!

And yes, people fly in their pajamas. And sweat pants that say "juicy" on the butts.

 

[dnewma04]

You've seen my sweats?

 

[JohnVF]

I thought that was you. You must fly a lot, I see you all time. Had no idea you were a young Latino woman, either.

 

[barredowl]

John I wasn't saying JBL L series was the end of speaker evolution my modern JBLs sound much better my point was *for the time period* it was quite good and that, and that state of the art equipment was mass market and got to a lot of people which doesn't happen anymore.

Dnewman I am guessing it's precisely because the equipment was flat which means that due to the way human hearing works 3.15 k, and 800 hz will sound overly loud. The correct way to equalize to a room so that all frequencies are *perceived* equally loudly which is pleasing is to use an equal loudness curve.

 

[dnewma04]

So, do you adjust your eq progressively as you turn the volume up? Do instruments compensate for the equal loudness curve? In this case both speakers were measured in the same room. One awful, one outstanding. I don't need an answer to my first couple of questions, I know the answer.

 

[JohnVF]

John I wasn't saying JBL L series was the end of speaker evolution my modern JBLs sound much better my point was *for the time period* it was quite good and that, and that state of the art equipment was mass market and got to a lot of people which doesn't happen anymore.

You can buy a Marantz PM-8003 and PSB Image T-6 speakers for less than the adjusted-for-inflation amount of the Marantz/JLB L-100 combo. And it sounds much better, and I would even guess based on listening to the speakers (haven't heard that particular Marantz) that it would measure much better than that vintage combo, too.

You can buy a Peachtree Nova with built in DAC that would run circles around most '70s receivers, again for less than their inflation adjusted price.

So what is today's budget minded audiophile not getting that they could get in the '70s? These are but two examples from what is a pretty healthy entry level market.

 

[barredowl]

ejfud if you hypothetically like a speaker that say has a big hole at 150 like the Zu Druid does then you are missing part of the sound of the bass and drums. Maybe you've rarely heard a bass so it's not readily apparent but it's not there, the numbers don't lie. Rinse and repeat for other frequencies and instruments, that may be missing from some other speaker that measure poorly at another frequency. So yes in a sense you are wrong, you haven't trained yourself to hear in frequency bands and understand when frequencies are missing from the total spectrum. Fortunately it's a skill you can teach yourself, if you have itunes for example you can pull up the graphic EQ and experiment with pulling out different frequency bands and see what effect that has on the sound. You could even replicate the shitty sound of the Z Druid if you like, but I don't see why you'd want to.

 

[Cosmos]

I've heard systems that were very flat (+/- 1dB) at the listening position in a room that sounded truly awful/unlistenable. Others that sounded amazing. Explain the phenomena please.

As you know Dave, (Yes I know you know and this was a bait) Frequency Response is but just one measurement. Simply, it tells you how much energy is at each frequency measurement. FR curves are smoothed meaning averaged. Since, they tell you how much energy is in an approximate band and since that measurement is quantifiable, people fall into a trap that they start to believe it tells them "how" good something sounds by simply looking at a FR plot...

Flat is flat with smoothing. Flat is cool, except bad sounding systems can be flat as you have pointed out. Don't get me wrong, I want flat, but there's a lot more to enjoyable sound than just being flat!!! I'd rather have good sound than flat, but that isn't "quantifiable".

Reading this thread should remind us that FR isn't the ultimate test and that speakers can somehow sound good to people that don't want or care about flat...

We just don't have all the answers. Science is science, but we don't hear science, we hear music... if you ask me, I thank God it's so.


BTW, there was always high end sold on hype and looks.. look at the Paragon. Even mighty JBL (and I love JBL) was guilty of it..

For every horse, there is a horses behind.

 

[JohnVF]

ejfud if you hypothetically like a speaker that say has a big hole at 150 like the Zu Druid does then you are missing part of the sound of the bass and drums. Maybe you've rarely heard a bass so it's not readily apparent but it's not there, the numbers don't lie. Rinse and repeat for other frequencies and instruments, that may be missing from some other speaker that measure poorly at another frequency. So yes in a sense you are wrong, you haven't trained yourself to hear in frequency bands and understand when frequencies are missing from the total spectrum. Fortunately it's a skill you can teach yourself, if you have itunes for example you can pull up the graphic EQ and experiment with pulling out different frequency bands and see what effect that has on the sound. You could even replicate the shitty sound of the Z Druid if you like, but I don't see why you'd want to.

I could say the same things about you when you profess to like mass market gear from the '70s over much of today's 'audiphile' gear. You've not heard it and so don't know what it is that you're missing.

 

[barredowl]

Well one thing they aren't getting is accurate information to steer them towards relatively sane choices like you mentioned John, and not crap like SET amps, Zu speakers, tiny bookshelf speakers that cost 2500 dollars and roll off at 70 hz that sound no better than cheap Polks, etc. It is exactly the most irrational choices that seem to be most hyped by stereopile and their ilk most likely because they are profitable for manufacturers who in turn can pay beaucoup bucks for ads.

I was there at one point and had Linn Tukans and NAD amps I am glad I Craigslisted that stuff and got cheaper full range equipment that sounds MUCH better than the thin low end "audiophile" crap I had before. I bought used but even still 475 was an expensive lesson for a tiny British bookshelf speaker IMO.

 

[barredowl]

Actually I can look at the specs for distortion, frequency response, dispersion, and sensativity and have a pretty good idea of what I am missing or not missing, that is the beauty of understanding an objective measurable world exists outside our emotion clouded subjective minds. The subjectivity of music is enough for me. No one can say objectively if Frank Zappa is better or worse than Berlioz, but it can be said objectively that a Zu Druid is less accurate than a modern JBL studio monitor in the same way we can say the JBL is more accurate than a cheap car speaker which the Zu more closely resemble in its ragged response than a JBL monitor.

In my opinion the high end purveyors have deliberately blurred the distinction between enjoying music which is subjective and the evaluating the equipment that conveys the music which has objectively measurable qualities, and have done so with the purpose of avoiding scrutiny when selling over priced underperforming equipment.

 

[JohnVF]

Well one thing they aren't getting is accurate information to steer them towards relatively sane choice like you mentioned John, and not crap like SET amps, Zu speakers, tiny bookshelf speakers that cost 2500 dollars and roll off at 70 hz that sound no better than cheap Polks, etc. It is exactly the most irrational choices that seem to be most hyped by stereopile and their ilk most likely because they are profitable for manufacturers who in turn can pay beaucoup bucks for ads.

I was there at one point and had Linn Tukans and NAD amps I am glad I Craigslisted that stuff and got cheaper full range equipment that sounds MUCH better than the thin low end "audiophile" crap I had before. I bought used but even still 475 was an expensive lesson for a tiny British bookshelf speaker IMO.

You seriously, honestly, have no idea what most people in the audiophile community are chasing, and with what they are chasing it with. Many uber expensive speakers are large, full range, and dominate a room physically. Many smaller speakers would surprise you with how low they can go. Stand mounted Ushers and Focals were the most recents ones that surprised me. Have you heard those? Small Linn speakers are for a segment of the audiophile community who worship timing, something called "prat" which is more important to them than full range sound. It is simply their choice.

Those PSB speakers I mentioned are as full range, or more, than JBL Centuries or Advents, and they have much better driver integration and a much more coherent sound. If you think those are subjective terms take it up with a speaker designer, for I am not one.

You are creating an image in your head of the whole audiophile community from a VERY small group.

And this might blow your mind...but my high end preamp? It has tone controls! They are limited but they are there, and quite functional and occasionally used at low volume to boost the bass.

I will agree...small linn speakers are not a way I want to go. I'm looking at Harbeth, Dali and Focal right now. With the exception of Dali, both of those companies make pro monitors. Yet I hang out with these audiophiles.

I'm serious, it is not like you imagine, for everybody. A small segment, yes, the majority? Not at all.

I thought it was exactly as you imagine when I joined AK and I was very surprised to learn it wasn't anything like you say it is. And SET is hardly mentioned, that is a very niche group of people that like a certain sound. Its certainly not widely promoted outside that group. But so what if it was?