Altec Model 19 Technical Info? Similar Econowave?
- Thread starter Pete B
- Start date
@Pete B
What are you going to use for a driver behind those 811s ?
I've mentioned ( a few times ) that I'm quite impressed with the tonality of plastic coated Ti diaphragms > ( sounding more similar to aluminum than not ).
As such, that's the direction I'd pursue first if the project was mine ( ignoring the fact I have many aluminum diaphragms drivers already ).
Since you have a pair of Peerless DFM2535 drivers you might want to start with those to see what you think of the combos sonics ( make sure you mount that 811b horn on a baffle to help suppress it's ringing ).
Assuming you like what you hear >> then you might consider inventing a diaphragm treatment hack ( to rival the sonics of the Peerless ).
IOW, paint up ( at least one of ) your Selenium d220ti diaphragms with a thin coat of clear polyurethane auto-paint ( such as one of the Tremco types meant for metal ).
- If it doesn't work out replacement diaphragms for that driver are still stupid-cheap from P.E. at a measly $20.00 per .
I might do this myself this fall >> though I'll need to buy a pair of d220Ti first.
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That's a great idea but I just don't have the time these days to do experiments like that. It would
be great to figure out what Peerless is using. I'm already wondering if it is more like paint, or
like silicone or rubber cement?
I just bought a pair of the Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 there were 9 in stock
and I doubt that they'll get more. I'm going to try it on the 811b s and maybe the XT1086.
There was one review that said it sounds better than the DE250, IIRC at high levels.
be great to figure out what Peerless is using. I'm already wondering if it is more like paint, or
like silicone or rubber cement?
I just bought a pair of the Peerless by Tymphany DFM-2544R00-08 there were 9 in stock
and I doubt that they'll get more. I'm going to try it on the 811b s and maybe the XT1086.
There was one review that said it sounds better than the DE250, IIRC at high levels.
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I'm quite confident those'll work out for you.
I guess the Ti hack will have to come later ( would be nice to save the reputation of the d220Ti and turn it into a better all-rounder ).
I've been interested to find a low cost version of the 811b and there's a horn in ABS plastic that looks from the
front like an 811b (with the vanes removed), sold on ebay. Search for 17 x 6" ABS Plastic Bi-radial horn. Looking
at pics of the back side one sees that it is only about half the depth, the sides are strongly curved whereas the
811b is straight conical in shape. I'd PASS on these. They might be fine if the taper is what you need but NOT
as a copy of the 811b, sold by ZXPC, #333338419879.
Still keeping an eye out for a low cost copy.
front like an 811b (with the vanes removed), sold on ebay. Search for 17 x 6" ABS Plastic Bi-radial horn. Looking
at pics of the back side one sees that it is only about half the depth, the sides are strongly curved whereas the
811b is straight conical in shape. I'd PASS on these. They might be fine if the taper is what you need but NOT
as a copy of the 811b, sold by ZXPC, #333338419879.
Still keeping an eye out for a low cost copy.
I bought a pair of those Bi-Radials ( from ZXPC ) when they first came out ( 2010 ?? ).
They are not a properly designed horn > the throat section has a very abrupt transition > from the threaded entry into the beginning of the throat flair.
This "STEP", imposes all sorts of response irregularities ( for those who care about smooth FR responses ).
Here's the raw response ( taken at 1/2 meter ) with a JBL 2426/7h driver fully threaded into the 1 3/8" entry.
.
Here's the same driver on the same horn ( at the same measuring distance ) but with the internal throat area ( just past the driver entry ) smoothed out with plumbers putty.
Here's the above "fixed" horn with a possible HiPass ( & HF contour circuit ) in place;
After listening to this "fixed" & EQed horn, I concluded it wasn't worth the ( somewhat substantial ) effort to smooth-out the throat section of the second horn.
I have also concluded ( from listening over the years ) that I prefer the sound of straight sided Radials to that of a similar looking but curved-horizontal walled BiRadial .
The basic straight-sided radial sounds "more open" to my ears.
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Altec Model 19 or JBL 4333:
Altec Model 19 or JBL 4333
Hey guys l had the extreme pleasure of working for JBL outfitting recording studios for 25 years. I also did work for Altec. I own almost every passive monitor JBL made during the 70's and 80's. In my home l use 4350's and Altec Model 19. The 19 has always been my guilty pleasure. Any opinions...
www.audiokarma.org
Altec Model 19 or JBL 4333
Hey guys l had the extreme pleasure of working for JBL outfitting recording studios for 25 years. I also did work for Altec. I own almost every passive monitor JBL made during the 70's and 80's. In my home l use 4350's and Altec Model 19. The 19 has always been my guilty pleasure. Any opinions...
www.audiokarma.org
I want to compare the XT1086 clone to the 811b, took some time to find this, here for future reference:
www.aliexpress.com
1PC DJ Tweeter Speaker Horn XT1086 80*60 Coverage Accessories Treble For Professional Console Audio HiFi Home Theater Karaoke
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
www.aliexpress.com
morfeora
Active Member
Hi Pete,
Very interesting project you have here. I came across this while looking for opinions about Altec 902+511B vs Selenium D220ti on JBL wave guide just as the econowave. I have both.
You can check my Altec build here using 416-8C on 620 clone cabinets and 902-8T on 511B using an active triamping system with Berhinger DCX2496 crossover emulating the Z19 crossover. Also use a JBL 2405h on the higher frequencies.
But my curiosity has been created because each time I try the Econowave combo (compresión driver+waveguide) I always feel that something is missing. Yes I can feel some kind of purity on the econowave set up, but lose some kind of realism the 902+511B horn has. So I always switch back to the full Altec compresión driver and horn. Yes the Econowave measure flatter and spouse to sound better, but I still do not prefer it.
There is a way when the Econowave sounds better than the Altec combo, when I am not listening music in my chair (listening position). It seams the evenly distribution regarding dispersion and flatter response do have it's advantage to fill my room, so music sounds better in a wider location in my room... This my humble subjective opinion and my recommendation is that you definitely have to try both sets.
To ad to a question you did regarding differences between 416 variants, I read someplace here in the forum this:
The 416-8B was designed to be used in bass réflex cabinets, wile the 416-8C was designed to be used on horn cabinets. But, in Altec papers there is cabinet suggestions and port tuning to use 416-8C on 620 and 612 bass réflex cabinets. Read in a post that once a Model 19 owner had one speaker using 416-8C and the other using 416-8B and was not able to hear any difference from one to another.
This is what I have to share so far, I will be following your adventures very interested on knowing about the results.
Cheers,
Rodolfo
Very interesting project you have here. I came across this while looking for opinions about Altec 902+511B vs Selenium D220ti on JBL wave guide just as the econowave. I have both.
You can check my Altec build here using 416-8C on 620 clone cabinets and 902-8T on 511B using an active triamping system with Berhinger DCX2496 crossover emulating the Z19 crossover. Also use a JBL 2405h on the higher frequencies.
But my curiosity has been created because each time I try the Econowave combo (compresión driver+waveguide) I always feel that something is missing. Yes I can feel some kind of purity on the econowave set up, but lose some kind of realism the 902+511B horn has. So I always switch back to the full Altec compresión driver and horn. Yes the Econowave measure flatter and spouse to sound better, but I still do not prefer it.
There is a way when the Econowave sounds better than the Altec combo, when I am not listening music in my chair (listening position). It seams the evenly distribution regarding dispersion and flatter response do have it's advantage to fill my room, so music sounds better in a wider location in my room... This my humble subjective opinion and my recommendation is that you definitely have to try both sets.
To ad to a question you did regarding differences between 416 variants, I read someplace here in the forum this:
The 416-8B was designed to be used in bass réflex cabinets, wile the 416-8C was designed to be used on horn cabinets. But, in Altec papers there is cabinet suggestions and port tuning to use 416-8C on 620 and 612 bass réflex cabinets. Read in a post that once a Model 19 owner had one speaker using 416-8C and the other using 416-8B and was not able to hear any difference from one to another.
This is what I have to share so far, I will be following your adventures very interested on knowing about the results.
Cheers,
Rodolfo
Hi Rodolfo and thanks for your comments that's all good to know. I move slowly and have way to
many projects but I hope to move along soon on these. Just to be clear is the 902-8T your favorite
driver on the 511B? I don't think that I'll be buying any Altec drivers but who knows?
many projects but I hope to move along soon on these. Just to be clear is the 902-8T your favorite
driver on the 511B? I don't think that I'll be buying any Altec drivers but who knows?
morfeora
Active Member
Hi Pete, I have two other altec drivers, I am not sure but they seams to be 802 but different variants, they difffer a bit in size and weight and in sound. So I don't have a matching pair to hear them as stereo source.. but when I try them on the 511B soon returned to the 902. It might be because they are not a matching pair or due it's particular sound... doing some frequency measurements on the 802 they are a roller coaster... I might be biased by this. Other that that I haven't try any other drivers on the 511B.
I have a pair of Rectilinear 3 empty boxes. Brought out the horns and one GRS 15PT woofer and I
knew that the boxes were small at about 2.8 cuft, way too small for a good vented alignment but
the woofer and horn will not even fit on the baffle together. Maybe if I flush front mounted the
woofers, it might work but also the depth of the horn is about 1" too much. I think cutting out the
back and a flush board might do it or perhaps just .5" cut into the back board.
If these boxes were close to 4 cuft then +6dB of boost would get back to -3dB at 28 Hz. Thinking
about a lower box to raise them up as a stand and add 1.5 cuft. Not sure if I'll ever be able to
handle 8 cuft boxes in my listening room.
Did I forget to mention that I'm using the GRS 15PT-8 woofer that goes much deeper than the Altec
but is much less efficient: Excellent price.
Perhaps I should just build these with the XT1086 in the box and the 811B on top to compare:
Will they fit ... NO! ... That's a big horn:
I bought these Rectilinear 3s from a friend for $50, he wanted to get rid of them. All the parts went to
AK members for use in their speakers or as spares, even the crossovers.
Horn on top? Maybe - would cut a new baffle of course:
knew that the boxes were small at about 2.8 cuft, way too small for a good vented alignment but
the woofer and horn will not even fit on the baffle together. Maybe if I flush front mounted the
woofers, it might work but also the depth of the horn is about 1" too much. I think cutting out the
back and a flush board might do it or perhaps just .5" cut into the back board.
If these boxes were close to 4 cuft then +6dB of boost would get back to -3dB at 28 Hz. Thinking
about a lower box to raise them up as a stand and add 1.5 cuft. Not sure if I'll ever be able to
handle 8 cuft boxes in my listening room.
Did I forget to mention that I'm using the GRS 15PT-8 woofer that goes much deeper than the Altec
but is much less efficient: Excellent price.
GRS 15PT-8 15" Woofer Bass Simulation - Looking For Extended Bass
As I mention in this thread I've been thinking about and wanting to build a big Econowave: https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/altec-model-19-technical-info-similar-econowave.1065422/ BUT, I want it to have bass extension, ideally, to 28 Hz or at least 30-35 Hz. Most high efficiency...
www.audiokarma.org
Perhaps I should just build these with the XT1086 in the box and the 811B on top to compare:
Will they fit ... NO! ... That's a big horn:
I bought these Rectilinear 3s from a friend for $50, he wanted to get rid of them. All the parts went to
AK members for use in their speakers or as spares, even the crossovers.
Horn on top? Maybe - would cut a new baffle of course:
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these might be interesting..............
CLEARANCE Eminence Professional 15" Paper Cone Woofer 3 Ohm
Eminence Professional 15" Paper Cone Woofer 3 OhmThis 3 ohm 15” paper cone professional woofer, built by Eminence Speakers, offers extreme output capability and natural response. The naturally damped paper cone and cloth surround keep unwanted response peaks under control, making it easy to...
www.parts-express.com
these might be interesting..............
CLEARANCE Eminence Professional 15" Paper Cone Woofer 3 Ohm
Eminence Professional 15" Paper Cone Woofer 3 OhmThis 3 ohm 15” paper cone professional woofer, built by Eminence Speakers, offers extreme output capability and natural response. The naturally damped paper cone and cloth surround keep unwanted response peaks under control, making it easy to...www.parts-express.com
My main concern is response flatness or lack of, note that the cone is flat paper without ribs,
so it looks different from the similar Eminence drivers. Not that ribs make the best cone,
don't know. Even the standard Eminence 15" drivers do not have the best response flatness,
the Kappa 15-C has a 12dB peak in the response. If you find measurements online please let us know.
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kyle
Super Member
I have Model 19s and also have 416-8B, -8C and -8Z (16" frame version) drivers which I have measured with a Woofer Tester 2 and have tried all in the Model 19s. The sample to sample measurements are all similar and within tolerances and they don't have a different sound to my ear when mounted in the 19s. Lots of people say the -8B has the best mids but I believe that's because their ears are much more sensitive than mine. The -8B does have the unique and much more sexy looking one piece cast magnetic return structure where other variants have either a welded pipe and cap type of magnetic return or a ceramic magnet. The -8B and -8Z have alnico magnets while the -8C uses a ceramic magnet. The -8B and -8C have 16" frames. The 416-8Z can be the older 15" front mount frame with the ribs on the back or the newer 16" rear mount frame.
I don't think that there was a 416-8 that was designed specifically for horn use. 515s were mostly used in horns and I have seen VOTT type speakers with 421s which were also often used in reflex cabs. 416s can be used in a horn but it's not a specific version designed with different specs.
morfeora
Active Member
Thank you for sharing all this details Kyle, I was for a long time looking for info from a real owner but so far only you and person I recall in my previous post were pointing to these, that there are no differences between those 416 variants. Is very good to hear from your experience.
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
Proper drivers aren't going to be cheap. Altec is built to a quality.I've been interested in the Altec Model 19 (M19) since I was in my teens and read the review in
High Fidelity 1978. Page 37 in the .pdf:
More:
Altec Model 19 on thevintageknob.org
vintage Altec Model 19 high-efficiency professional monitorwww.thevintageknob.org
NICE:
View attachment 3267398
Lately, I've been thinking about buying a pair and that led to wanting to first try something similar by way
of an Econowave. I can think of doing an Econowave as close as possible to the original, or with one of the
upgraded crossovers, and also one that retains the good qualities but improved, on a budget, as much
as possible. Also, one with a MiniDSP so that crossover changes can be easily tried.
I don't need very high efficiency so I don't mind giving up 3-6 dB in an Econowave version.
I don't know a lot about Altec speakers and that is the reason for this thread. If there's full documentation
somewhere please point me to it.
The purpose of this thread is to learn as much as possible about the original Model 19, including:
Box size (volume) and dimensions,
Nice scratch build here: https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/altec-model-19-speaker-building-project.471235/
Port size and tuning,
Drivers used originally and if they were improved along the way, etc.
What are considered the best substitutes as improvements/replacements for the originals.
Crossovers, original, Z19, others and impressions of them if anyone has compared them.
I've read on here that these are end game speakers, so I don't need to be convinced about listening impressions,
I do want to hear about faults and how to fix them and how any upgrade changes the sound.
First question is how would one build a clone (this is not my plan but I want to understand them) and what
upgrades make them the best sounding speakers possible?
I think that I can work out a much cheaper Econowave version once I know how the original was built, but I
do welcome suggestions for drivers, horns, etc.
Thanks all