Altec Model 19 Technical Info? Similar Econowave?

[Pete B]

I was just making a weak attempt at humour.
I use model 19s with original components though I have tried Z19 and active crossovers.

Mind if I ask where you run the mid and horn level controls with the completely stock setup?

And do you notice when running the mid at a lower position that there's less mid from the woofer also?

Thanks for your comments, good to hear from a person who lives with them.

 

[Pete B]

Just my opinion, but ( for me ) any Model-19 wannabe must use the Altec 811b horn along with an Altec 802-8G compression driver ( with the N1201a crossover ).

I'm a bit more open minded about the 15" woofer ( as long as it sports a light cone assembly >> iow; a 60-70 mms figure, is efficient >> over 95db and can dig low enough to a solid 40hz ).

Over at diyAudio, the Eminence "Legend CB158" was mentioned. It's definitely worth reading the customer reviews within the link.

Since the woofer is quite affordable ( with apparent lots-a-love from Bass Guitarists ) it seems to be a pretty decent bet to try out ( & sell off to the M.I. types if found lacking ).

I remember reading somewhere that Zilch ran his De250, 511, LE14A system for a while and then tried the JBL 6X12"
horn and found it to be a vast improvement. Expectation bias? I don't know, but I also don't mind if an Econwave
version sounds better than the M19. I don't have any interest in duplicating any flaws of the 811b horn so I doubt
if I'd ever use that in any Econo version. What is special about the 811b, is there a modern (cheap) horn that comes
close, even if not CD? I do want a CD horn in an Econo version but would try others and would like to TRY an 811B.

 

[kyle]

Mind if I ask where you run the mid and horn level controls with the completely stock setup?

And do you notice when running the mid at a lower position that there's less mid from the woofer also?

Thanks for your comments, good to hear from a person who lives with them.

I use the "Optimum" area on the controls. Pointer on the first M for the mids and on the T for the highs. It's really room and ancillary dependent though. I've had these speakers since 2003 and I have lived in 4 different houses with different size and construction of listening rooms, all sounded different and the settings were different in all.

 

[Pete B]

Optimum is 12 oclock? Did you ever need to run either one full up, or close to it, in any of those rooms?
Just read your post again, I have to look at a closeup of the XO to follow your M and T comment.

 

[EarlK]

@Pete B

I recommended the Altec 811b horn because of the text seen within the following quote from your link ( which I thought pointed one to some of the specific Altec M19 attributes you desired to copy );



Over the years I've seen this "imaging-trick" casually mentioned by a few posters with M19's ( though never in print from an official publication ).

The ability to throw an image forward ( as opposed to backwards ) seems to be unique to the sectoral horn type ( & I have no idea why this might happen ).

If one wants to tap into some of the much-discussed "magic" of the M19 >> & some of it is it's unique imaging abilities then one should emulate it's desirable characteristics ( only said "apparently", since I don't own any sectoral horns > my regular Emilar EH500 radials will only image "behind" the speakers front-plain ).

Here a nice polar comparison ( created by Joseph Crowe ) of the 811b horn to his ES600 horn ( using a TAD 2001 driver ).



While the comparison ( seems to exist to make ) the buyer cringe at the view of the Altec's polar messiness > ( in my mind, when coupled with M19 user-comments ) there's something in that hollowed out polar spread ( for the Altec ) that gives it some unique imaging capabilities that don't exist in the horn/waveguide types having polars similar to what's seen on the right-hand side.

What you're looking at above, is part of the M19's magic ( like it or not ).

 

[Tom Brennan]

I ran my 19s with the mid set on 9 o'clock and the high set on 12 o'clock. That suited my taste.

I think the 511 and 811 are excellent sounding horns. In my horny days I used many horns--Altec (including tar filled 1005 multi cells) JBL, EV, Emilar, Edgar tractrix saladbowls, Klipsch Pro tractrix, Eminence, McCauley, PAudio, Smith horns--and was quite satisfied with 511s and 811s.

 

[Pete B]

@EarlK I see your post #25 now and thanks for that info, I was not aware of all that.
It would take a lot of testing to figure out exactly what's going on, I wonder as another theory
if it could be something in the frequency response that pushes the imaging forward. But yes, if
there's magic to them it would be nice to come as close as possible to whatever was going on.
Without a pair of actual M19s I don't think that I'll be able to figure it out. The Altec engineers
did an amazing job on their designs, especially considering the time frame.
My take on what you quoted was that the M19s imaged way better than anything from that era.
But I was hoping that modern designs, with CD WGs are doing better, just speculation and I
could be wrong of course.
Excellent to see a test of the 811b.
I think the only way I'd be able to try them (811b) is to borrow a pair, or 3D print one as two
pieces since my 3D printer is not that large. The way that the JBL 8x8 is done in halves. It
would be excellent if we could get files to print a copy.

Are the Emilar EH500's your main speakers? What drivers are you using on them?

 

[Pete B]

Does anyone know of a review of the M19 with an input impedance plot, or anywhere
to get one? It would tell us the impedance roughly below 100 Hz, just remembered
that I think I can export a .ZMA out of Unibox but it would be a good double check.
The Zin is measured here but in a sealed box, need to replace below 100 Hz with data
for the actual vented system:

Altec 416-8B in 100L Sealed

In this blog post I test the Altec 416-8B in a 100L sealed enclosure. Testing was done outdoors for the frequency response and then brought indoors for the distortion testing. The woofers are new from Great Planes Audio. A customer has sent me the finished cabinets with drivers to integrate...

josephcrowe.com

 

[derekva]

I take it if you hear no difference then it is an acceptable replacement, is that your thinking?

FWIW, you can remove the loading cap from an 808-8b (should be cheaper than an 808-8g) and damp the inside of the rear cover with an adhesive wool pad, and you will have the equivalent of an 808-8G.

In fact, the auction site has a pair of 808-8b compression drivers and 511 horns for $750. If the diaphragms are in good shape and not cheap Chinese knockoffs, that's not a bad deal given inflation. However, the auction site *also* has a pair of M19s in Wisconsin for $1200, if you don't mind doing a road-trip...

 

[bowtie427ss]

Does anyone know of a review of the M19 with an input impedance plot, or anywhere
to get one?

Still looking, but not terribly hopeful.

Cliff Henricksen was the lead engineer for the model nineteen project. He(and Mark Ureda) was also responsible for several horn designs at Altec and EV as well as advancing some of D.B. Keele's work. Some searches of patents from the time range of development might shed some useful info.

I urge you not to overlook the importance of the cabinet design, it was a focus of the engineering and is stated in so many words on the original Model Nineteen sales slick.

It’s overwhelming full-range capability and response is aided by an optimally tuned, vented enclosure, the product of more exhaustive investigation, which makes the Nineteen ideal for home listeners who want studio-monitor performance and quality.

FWIW, circa 1976 MSRP $660.00 ea.

 

[Pete B]

Found this for the horn that EarlK referenced. This is to buy 3D print files for the ES600 bi-radial horn
but he sliced it along the horizontal which doesn't help make it fit my 3D printer. Rather I need it sliced
vertically or both ways. I can print about 215 x 215 mm, by about 240 height. Maybe I should ask him
to chop it one more time. It is very large, 417mm Wide x 203mm High x 198mm Deep and has a 1.4"
throat: $30 for the files, not bad at all.

ES-600 Bi-Radial Horn 3D CAD Files

3D CAD Files ES (Exponential Spiral) flare geometry Price is 'Per Pair' in Canadian Funds Wrap-around horn mouth Allows Precision CNC cut or 3D Printing Includes full horn model and horn model split in half Bass cabinet and/or crossover design service available (Please contact) Bass...

josephcrowe.com

Note that the above is an older revision the latest ES600 #1978, 1" or 1.4" is $80 for the plans:

3D CAD Files for ES-600 Bi-Radial Wood Horn No.1978

By purchasing these plans you will automatically receive via email the required 3D CAD files to manufacture the horn. Horn No.1978 represents a sweet spot in terms of size, providing extension down to 600Hz and yet still maintaining acceptably wide horizontal off-axis coverage in the upper...

josephcrowe.com

EDIT: HOW TO SPLIT .STL FILES IN WINDOWS:
If you are using Windows, 3D Builder is extremely easy to use and comes pre-installed (at least on Windows 10).
There is an option to split STL files, then you just drag the plane to where it should split and confirm.
The only thing to mention is that you can choose to keep one half or both parts. If you choose both parts, there
is no option to save them separately that I have found. Easiest is to split -> keep one half -> save -> undo -> keep other half -> save.

EDIT: MICROSOFT REMOVED 3D BUILDER FROM WINDOWS:
Need to find an offline installer.

 

[Pete B]

Unibox simulation of 416-8B added to post #2.

 

[Pete B]

This is Joeseph Crowe's SPL measurement of the Great Planes 416-8B:
Does anyone know if the real Altec version had similar peaking from 1K to 3K? Are there measurements
of a real one anywhere to be found?

 

[Tom Brennan]

This is Joeseph Crowe's SPL measurement of the Great Planes 416-8B:
Does anyone know if the real Altec version had similar peaking from 1K to 3K? Are there measurements
of a real one anywhere to be found?

Interesting response. Flattening that peak and placing the driver behind a BBC style slot to widen dispersion might make for a crossover around 3-3.5KHZ to a tweeter and a nice simple 2-way. Graham does something like that.

 

[big2bird]

Find a set of Valencia 846B, and bi amp them. A tad smaller, and with a little tweaking, sound great.

I bought mine new in 1977? Still perform well. I replaced one horn driver voice coil once.

 

[Pete B]

What do you use to bi-amp them?
A friend has a pair.

 

[Pete B]

Interesting:

The Altec-Lansing Model 19-MR3: The Loudspeaker That Never Was:​

The Altec-Lansing Model 19-MR3: The Loudspeaker That Never Was - Audiophile Nirvana

The Altec-Lansing M500 Maestro is a largely lost and forgotten loudspeaker, but it is, perhaps, the best the company ever built. It arrived in the final days of Altec-Lansing, Inc., and production was cut short due to the sale of the company. Why is the M500 Maestro important to us today? It...

www.audiophilenirvana.com

 

[doctorolds]

Okay, I'll take a couple pair, lol.
Interesting, but seem unlikely to be found.
One could always try to use the information provided and build a pair, but optimizing and getting them to perform their best may be difficult?

 

[Pete B]

It is unfortunate that Great Plains Audio is gone, here they are on the wayback machine:
EDIT: They seem to have changed their name to Great Plains Acoustics, with new insane prices:

About Us

OUR STORY Great Plains Acoustics are thecraftsmen of original designand clean sound performance. We are creators of a signaturequality that is trusted byprofessionals and enjoyed byaudiophiles. Our story derives fromdecades of hands-on soundengineering and speakerconstruction. OUR GOALS Create...

greatplainsacoustics.com

Products - Great Plains Audio

… Continue reading →

web.archive.org

Altec Lansing Valencia: Improving a Classic - Great Plains Audio

The Altec-Lansing Valencia 846B is an American audio classic that inspired the development of the legendary Model 19. It shares many similarities with the newer and larger Model 19. There were two versions of the Valencia: the 846A and 846B. … Continue reading →

web.archive.org

Jeff Markwart Info:

Jeff Markwart's Corner - Great Plains Audio

… Continue reading →

web.archive.org

 

[doctorolds]

It is unfortunate that Great Plains Audio is gone, here they are on the wayback machine:

Wow, surprised, but not really.
Supply and demand is the governing factor.