$11 Chinese AT3600L Thread Mk. II - Champagne sound on a Beer budget!

[Trekkie4]

Just tested as it arrived yesterday the conical version of the ATvm95. Same sort of thing IMO fuller than the ML and slightly less detailed but being picky here but great. Really starting to wonder what we are chasing honestly the vm 95 conical is a bargain.
Not the be all and end all but lovely for the money and up gradable. Hmm so is the AT3600
Chris

ATvm95 is the new model, right? The one that's threaded... To be honest, I'm not really into AT carts, they seem too bright for my taste so I'm probably not going to bother with the new model(s).

However, I'm thinking about buying additional 3600 or two, just in case. From what I understood, AT discontinued 3600 & 95E in favor of VM series. So it's only a matter of time before sellers on ebay & AliExpress run out of stock

 

[cafe latte]

ATvm95 is the new model, right? The one that's threaded... To be honest, I'm not really into AT carts, they seem too bright for my taste so I'm probably not going to bother with the new model(s).

However, I'm thinking about buying additional 3600 or two, just in case. From what I understood, AT discontinued 3600 & 95E in favor of VM series. So it's only a matter of time before sellers on ebay & AliExpress run out of stock

I better get some more too love my AT3600
Chris

 

[jrtrent]

. . . From what I understood, AT discontinued 3600 & 95E in favor of VM series. So it's only a matter of time before sellers on ebay & AliExpress run out of stock

The new conical model is said at AT's website to replace the AT91, AT91R and CN5625AL, but maybe they'll keep producing the AT3600L since it's used as original equipment on several turntables. And you'd think AT would support previous customers by continuing to produce ATN91R and ATN3600L styli (and someone needs to make styli for 3600 variants like the Rega Carbon and Music Hall Melody). I've been holding off buying a new cartridge waiting for some test reports or user reviews of the VM95C--that "95" in the model name has me scared off!

 

[cafe latte]

The new conical model is said at AT's website to replace the AT91, AT91R and CN5625AL, but maybe they'll keep producing the AT3600L since it's used as original equipment on several turntables. And you'd think AT would support previous customers by continuing to produce ATN91R and ATN3600L styli (and someone needs to make styli for 3600 variants like the Rega Carbon and Music Hall Melody). I've been holding off buying a new cartridge waiting for some test reports or user reviews of the VM95C--that "95" in the model name has me scared off!

What are you scared of? The new ATVM95 conical under the microscope has almost not glue like none I can see so it is basically nude mounted. It is flawless too and it costs next to nothing, what could you be possibly waiting for? Oh it sounds great too...
Chris

 

[jrtrent]

What are you scared of? The new ATVM95 conical under the microscope has almost not glue like none I can see so it is basically nude mounted. It is flawless too and it costs next to nothing, what could you be possibly waiting for? Oh it sounds great too...
Chris

I've had very few cartridges over the years that were so unpleasant that I just didn't want to play music with them. Two of those were AT cartridges, the AT440ML and the AT95E; both had a thin, bright tonal quality that I found irritating. If the VM95 series shares that same tonal balance, then it's just not going to be a cartridge that I will enjoy. The CN5625AL, however, along with a Denon-branded look-alike that came on my DP-300F and the AT3600L that a friend has on his Music Hall turntable are all cartridges that I could live with.

I just realized, though, that I'd forgotten about a thread a month or so back in which someone referenced a review posted on ebay. That review found the VM95 line to match the AT95E's tonal qualities, so, unless I hear otherwise from future reviews, this is a cartridge I'll have to pass on. However, different folks like different things, and I have a brother, a nephew, and a friend who have all liked the somewhat bright quality of the AT95E, so the new VM95 line would probably make them happy.

 

[Trekkie4]

I've had very few cartridges over the years that were so unpleasant that I just didn't want to play music with them. Two of those were AT cartridges, the AT440ML and the AT95E; both had a thin, bright tonal quality that I found irritating. If the VM95 series shares that same tonal balance, then it's just not going to be a cartridge that I will enjoy. The CN5625AL, however, along with a Denon-branded look-alike that came on my DP-300F and the AT3600L that a friend has on his Music Hall turntable are all cartridges that I could live with.

I just realized, though, that I'd forgotten about a thread a month or so back in which someone referenced a review posted on ebay. That review found the VM95 line to match the AT95E's tonal qualities, so, unless I hear otherwise from future reviews, this is a cartridge I'll have to pass on. However, different folks like different things, and I have a brother, a nephew, and a friend who have all liked the somewhat bright quality of the AT95E, so the new VM95 line would probably make them happy.

Yes, it really does - doesn't it? It has that warmer tone like Shure(s)... This is of course a matter of personal opinion, but as far as I'm concerned vinyl is supposed to sound "warm"

 

[cafe latte]

I've had very few cartridges over the years that were so unpleasant that I just didn't want to play music with them. Two of those were AT cartridges, the AT440ML and the AT95E; both had a thin, bright tonal quality that I found irritating. If the VM95 series shares that same tonal balance, then it's just not going to be a cartridge that I will enjoy. The CN5625AL, however, along with a Denon-branded look-alike that came on my DP-300F and the AT3600L that a friend has on his Music Hall turntable are all cartridges that I could live with.

I just realized, though, that I'd forgotten about a thread a month or so back in which someone referenced a review posted on ebay. That review found the VM95 line to match the AT95E's tonal qualities, so, unless I hear otherwise from future reviews, this is a cartridge I'll have to pass on. However, different folks like different things, and I have a brother, a nephew, and a friend who have all liked the somewhat bright quality of the AT95E, so the new VM95 line would probably make them happy.

For what it is worth the AT3600 is quite warm, I did a side by side last night repeating the same track of a few records with the 3600 and the new AT vm 95 conical and the new ML. The ML is the brightest which is expected, what was not so expected was the AT3600 to be much solider and warmer than the ATvm 95. The AT vm 95 had better stereo than the 3600 at the cost of a bit of low end grunt that the 3600 did better. The vm95 conical is very fast and light on its feet, seriously so for a conical but it does not quite have the detail of the ML. I dont mind the brighter ML as I have a lot of carts and like them all for different moods, but the new VM95 conical is a real bargain IMO same great cantilever as the ML and what for all intents and purposes is a nude mounted superb conical tip. Yes is is supposed to be bonded but if it is it is a lovely job. This low end VM 95 conical as all conicals see to have is a thicker warmer presentation, the new VM95 does that without loosing too much of its pace. I only bought one to see if it was a similar cart to the 3600, and I know most will be going for the nude elliptical or the ML, but IMO the super cheap conical version is well worth a look.
Chris

 

[jrtrent]

For what it is worth the AT3600 is quite warm, I did a side by side last night repeating the same track of a few records with the 3600 and the new AT vm 95 conical and the new ML. The ML is the brightest which is expected, what was not so expected was the AT3600 to be much solider and warmer than the ATvm 95. The AT vm 95 had better stereo than the 3600 at the cost of a bit of low end grunt that the 3600 did better. . .

Thank you very much for your comparison and information. It seems to confirm that review I read on Ebay. I had previously seen reviews comparing the AT95E and CN5625AL, and those confirmed what I heard in my system, too, that the AT95E was a bit bright and bass shy relative to the CN5625AL (though even the CN5625AL didn't sound truly warm to me, not like the M97xE does).

 

[cafe latte]

Thank you very much for your comparison and information. It seems to confirm that review I read on Ebay. I had previously seen reviews comparing the AT95E and CN5625AL, and those confirmed what I heard in my system, too, that the AT95E was a bit bright and bass shy relative to the CN5625AL (though even the CN5625AL didn't sound truly warm to me, not like the M97xE does).

The M97xe ( I have one too) I would consider lifeless rather than warm, rather like the singer singing to themselves while getting ready to go out rather than that in room performance.
Chris

 

[T68]

Interesting to hear about at95 being brighter than Shure and at3600. Exactly what I´m looking for!

 

[cafe latte]

Interesting to hear about at95 being brighter than Shure and at3600. Exactly what I´m looking for!

The M97xe has a suckout in the upper mids that has been widely covered online which makes it sound compressed. The AT3600 with original stylus is open but not as clean or as detailed as the new VM95 conical, but both have positives IMO.
Chris

 

[jrtrent]

The M97xe ( I have one too) I would consider lifeless rather than warm, rather like the singer singing to themselves while getting ready to go out rather than that in room performance.
Chris

I happen to love my M97xE. Depending on the system context, it hasn't always been my favorite cartridge (e.g., I preferred a Grado on my Well Tempered and a Sumiko on my Denon), but it has always sounded at least good to my ears, and was particularly so on both an LP12/Ittok and my current Rega RP3. I'm in agreement with the cherry-picked positive comments from TNT-Audio's review:

"As can be gleaned from the frequency response plots the tonal balance darkens progressively towards the treble, a bit like a classic Quad preamp with the 'tilt' control down all three notches and a mite of bass boost. . . The upper bass is full and round, conspicuously present yet tuneful and bouncy. The midrange and treble areas lack some air and definition, but the '97 somehow avoids sounding dull and boring. If anything, the music bursts forth with quite some enthusiasm . . . The treble, while subdued, is quite pure, undistorted, and unstressed. Sibilance is handled well, troublesome 'S'es being reduced to a soft (dutch) 'ch'. This surely is a friendly-sounding cartridge!"

The sound of the M97xE is so perfect to my ears on the Rega (and that may have something to do with the Rega arm; TNT-Audio used an RB300 on a Michell GyroDec in its review) that I fully intended to keep using it til my dying day; then, of course, Shure got out of the cartridge making business. I last replaced the stylus this past February, so it's days are definitely numbered, which is why I'm casting about for replacement ideas. There are still a few N97xE styli on various websites, but with Shure out of the game, my preference is to cut ties now and move on.

 

[Final_Baton]

I like what I'm hearing in those comparison clips. This is a very balanced sound across the whole spectrum to my ears. I enjoyed the sound of the conical stylus and also the hyper elliptical. didn't enjoy that of the elliptical.

I've just ordered one from a seller that had that same picture for the cart on his ad. He had a lot already sold. Let's hope it'll arrive safely

 

[leemelone]

Here's a video that may surprise some of the naysayers. Based on it and this thread, I ordered one yesterday.

 

[cafe latte]

I happen to love my M97xE. Depending on the system context, it hasn't always been my favorite cartridge (e.g., I preferred a Grado on my Well Tempered and a Sumiko on my Denon), but it has always sounded at least good to my ears, and was particularly so on both an LP12/Ittok and my current Rega RP3. I'm in agreement with the cherry-picked positive comments from TNT-Audio's review:

"As can be gleaned from the frequency response plots the tonal balance darkens progressively towards the treble, a bit like a classic Quad preamp with the 'tilt' control down all three notches and a mite of bass boost. . . The upper bass is full and round, conspicuously present yet tuneful and bouncy. The midrange and treble areas lack some air and definition, but the '97 somehow avoids sounding dull and boring. If anything, the music bursts forth with quite some enthusiasm . . . The treble, while subdued, is quite pure, undistorted, and unstressed. Sibilance is handled well, troublesome 'S'es being reduced to a soft (dutch) 'ch'. This surely is a friendly-sounding cartridge!"

The sound of the M97xE is so perfect to my ears on the Rega (and that may have something to do with the Rega arm; TNT-Audio used an RB300 on a Michell GyroDec in its review) that I fully intended to keep using it til my dying day; then, of course, Shure got out of the cartridge making business. I last replaced the stylus this past February, so it's days are definitely numbered, which is why I'm casting about for replacement ideas. There are still a few N97xE styli on various websites, but with Shure out of the game, my preference is to cut ties now and move on.

The suckout is not progressive towards the top it is a suck out then back up, then a droop afterwards. Loading does not help as you can fill the suck out to some extent but it messes with the frequency curve. It is the suck out frequencies that take away that vocal presence and air. We all have sounds we like and gear we like, just sayin that the suck out is something that whatever turntable I put the shure on I just cant live with it. Here is a link showing the midrange suck out
https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html
The high frequency drop off robs the air and the midrange suck out makes singers sound recessed the graph shows why and the loading cant help totally it is why I gave up on mine. There are just too many MM that dont have these issues. Yes it all depends on Speakers room and ears of who is listening, but a neutral system is going to show up the issues with the M97xe IMO. I have 5 turntables set up and differences between then are small, carts make the biggest differences.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Here's a video that may surprise some of the naysayers. Based on it and this thread, I ordered one yesterday.

It is no giant killer but darn good. I tried my 681 with an LP grat vivid line stylus against the AT3600 last night. Both sounded full, but the 681 had the greater width and detail too. That said the AT3600 cost 20 bucks and the postage alone cost me more than that for the 681 stylus! The AT3600 is super value and I enjoy mine especially for the price.
Chris

 

[jrtrent]

The suckout is not progressive towards the top it is a suck out then back up, then a droop afterwards. Loading does not help as you can fill the suck out to some extent but it messes with the frequency curve. It is the suck out frequencies that take away that vocal presence and air. We all have sounds we like and gear we like, just sayin that the suck out is something that whatever turntable I put the shure on I just cant live with it. Here is a link showing the midrange suck out
https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html
The high frequency drop off robs the air and the midrange suck out makes singers sound recessed the graph shows why and the loading cant help totally it is why I gave up on mine. There are just too many MM that dont have these issues. Yes it all depends on Speakers room and ears of who is listening, but a neutral system is going to show up the issues with the M97xe IMO. I have 5 turntables set up and differences between then are small, carts make the biggest differences.
Chris

Just a cut-and-paste from an older thread that still reflects my thoughts on that cartridge. By the way, I don't see a suck out followed by a "then back up" as long as the standard loading is followed. Rather, the frequency response seems to shelve down by 3 dB or so between 2 kHz and 6 kHz, then stays pretty flat up to 16 kHz before trailing off.

J. Gordon Holt, in his 1985 article "Down with Flat," expressed the opinion that speakers that measure flat in the high end sound bright or tilted up, and he found that a 4 dB slope from 2 kHz to 10 Khz, then extending flat beyond that, made things sound more natural (which he accomplished with two resistors and a capacitor per channel between the preamp and power amp). Oppositely, at the low end, speakers that measured flat sounded thin to him, and it took a low-end rise to actually sound flat. Looking at Werner Ogiers measurements on the M97xE at TNT Audio, we see that this cartridge, at its standard loading recommendations, is pretty flat between 500 Hz and 2 kHz, but shows a 3 dB droop between 2 kHz and 6 kHz (extending flat past that point to about 16 kHz before dropping away) and also has a mild boost below 500 Hz of about 2 dB. Not an exact match, but pretty similar to what JGH found sounded more natural to him.

I find the M97xE a very natural-sounding transducer. It's easy for me to become absorbed in the performance, not having my attention distracted by any perceived tonal balance anomalies. Maybe its mild deviations from flat are a help in this regard.

Edit: I think I've talked myself into buying another N97xE replacement stylus after all. I don't like the idea of continuing on with a product abandoned by its manufacturer, but I know I won't find anything I like better. Might as well go on enjoying perfect sound for as long as I can.

 

[Trekkie4]

This is kinda getting us off-topic, but with all this M97xE talk, I might as well share my own experience. I will try to make it 3600-relevant though

I used to have a Shure M94E, which (in the terms of technical specs) is exactly the same as M97xE, except it doesn't have shiny aluminum body & stabilizer brush. Unfortunately, that 94E was too old (more than 15yrs), so once I actually mounted it on my LP120 I immediately noticed distortion on the right channel, which (to cut the story short) turned out to be the stylus itself & replaced it for blue-colored generic (Jico?) N 99E. Unfortunately, despite my best intentions I couldn't get the M94 to sound as good, as it used to be on my old Kenwood KD1600 - in fact it sounded kinda washed out & flat. You know, like a boring lecturing speech... Funny thing is that most people are noticing & saying exactly the same for 97xE, regardless of stylus size & stabilizer brush. It's not a bad cart, just doesn't sound as impressive as I remember it! But once I moved on with Shure M75 ED Type2 things have changed entirely (for the better that is), and it sounds tons better than it did before.

Now, here's the on-topic part of my post. That AT3600 sounds a lot like Shure! It's not quite up to the Shure standards and I'm noticing a lot IGD, something I barely hear on my M75, or even M94 with 99E stylus, especially if the particular album is in a bad condition. Which (and I'm afraid to admit), most of them are, so it would seem as if AT 3600 picks up every single imperfection & makes it audible, it doesn't forgive & forget

Still, I find it a to be amazing cartridge for the price & will most likely buy another or two, just in case. If I had another table for whatever the reason or purpose, I would pair it with 3600 over overrated 95E any time!

 

[oldman54]

Bought 2 at3600l, great sound. I thought I would try an eliptical on it. Ordered an atn3601e by Astatic. Arrived, foam in package turning to dust but stylus fine and surprise...it's a genuine AT. It works great! Seems to take it to another level. Tracks 1.5-2.5 grams, fine at 2. Good high end and doesn't mind rough records, better than stock stylus. Best stylus for rough records I've ever had, I have a few $1 specials. Ordered another one today.

 

[cafe latte]

This is kinda getting us off-topic, but with all this M97xE talk, I might as well share my own experience. I will try to make it 3600-relevant though

I used to have a Shure M94E, which (in the terms of technical specs) is exactly the same as M97xE, except it doesn't have shiny aluminum body & stabilizer brush. Unfortunately, that 94E was too old (more than 15yrs), so once I actually mounted it on my LP120 I immediately noticed distortion on the right channel, which (to cut the story short) turned out to be the stylus itself & replaced it for blue-colored generic (Jico?) N 99E. Unfortunately, despite my best intentions I couldn't get the M94 to sound as good, as it used to be on my old Kenwood KD1600 - in fact it sounded kinda washed out & flat. You know, like a boring lecturing speech... Funny thing is that most people are noticing & saying exactly the same for 97xE, regardless of stylus size & stabilizer brush. It's not a bad cart, just doesn't sound as impressive as I remember it! But once I moved on with Shure M75 ED Type2 things have changed entirely (for the better that is), and it sounds tons better than it did before.

Now, here's the on-topic part of my post. That AT3600 sounds a lot like Shure! It's not quite up to the Shure standards and I'm noticing a lot IGD, something I barely hear on my M75, or even M94 with 99E stylus, especially if the particular album is in a bad condition. Which (and I'm afraid to admit), most of them are, so it would seem as if AT 3600 picks up every single imperfection & makes it audible, it doesn't forgive & forget

Still, I find it a to be amazing cartridge for the price & will most likely buy another or two, just in case. If I had another table for whatever the reason or purpose, I would pair it with 3600 over overrated 95E any time!

My M97xe sounds nothing like the AT3600, nothing at all. The AT3600 has in room forward mids and the M97xe has just the opposite. The AT3600 has extended highs without being hard and the M97xe has highs rolled off at about 10k, both M97xe and AT3600 have good bass, but the AT is more solid, the carts sound nothing like each other.
Chris