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A Reference 400 Restoration/Modification

Performance will be reduced -- likely not enough for the average person who just turns on the unit and listens to it in a casual way. For someone like me however -- or even someone just wanting to know that their Fisher can deliver all it was designed to if they ever wanted or needed it to, then it's a poor second option.

The approach your suggesting effectively adds significant resistance to the power supply, so that when the amplifiers need to draw more current, the voltages sag, which reduces power output, and increases distortion. Using the bucking method (best), very little impedance is added to the power source supplying the receiver, so that when extra current flow is required, it can be accommodated without an accompanying voltage drop.

Again, for average or even typical use, the internal resistors approach will work -- although you will need to watch out for how much additional heat this might produce under the hood. But to have your cake and eat it too, a bucking transformer is the only way to go. Many folks build one into an external gang box which is hidden away to provide bucked power to operate the receiver from.

Often times however, just the addition of a current limiter device will bring the voltages well enough in line, and provides protection for the power switch as well.

Dave
 
The other thing with adding a resistor to the B+ supply is that it doesn't address the high voltage on the tube heater supply. Too much heater will shorten tube life. Knocking down the voltage coming into the transformer is a more complete fix, whether thats with an inrush limiter or with a bucking trafo.
 
Good points from both of you. Thanks. So is it safe to assume then, that if fisher was designing this unit today, they would have used a transformer with different turns ratio to assure prober ps voltages?
 
Correct. And manufacturers generally adjusted their turns ratio as the trend for high AC line voltages took place. For example, 120-121 vac is just fine for a Dynaco SCZ-35 or ST-35, but will send the B+ soaring in a MK II or MNK III amplifier. That's because of the ~ 7 years time difference between these models.

Dave
 
I have a 1957 Magnavox amp that I was fooling with recently. 115vac input puts the heater and other voltages exactly where it wants to be. The mid 60s PA amps are right on the money with my usual 120-122 from the wall.
 
Build yourself a bucking unit. Fairly simple instructions on line and cost is relatively cheap. Big box doo-dads, a case, and a transformer. Before RS went under, a lot of folk used their product. I've come across postings using the Hammond 166N6 altho I have no experience with them. Here is one I built a few months ago only because I came across my last RS transformer at the bottom of a pile in my work room.
 

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I am going to be installing the EFB modification in my early (version I) 400 having non-AX opt’s. My research went back to 3/16/13 where Dave Gillespie (DG) described the benefits of this mod and has led me to follow the thread to gather the information needed. Being a little anal I went so far as to print the thread(s) and create a binder with as much info as I could find, knowing that it would be some time before I would have the time to get started.

Fast forward a number of months and now I am reading through the threads and studying the photos and schematics and here is where I am at.

I have a schematic by DG dated 3/24/13 showing that the design is for the later (AX opt) version II. I saw some discussion around the reasons why the EFB for the earlier version is different than the later version, but I cannot find the schematic for the early version. I am wondering if it actually exists.

Also, I am further confused because on 5/20/19 DG describes a restoration of pretty much everything that is possible (if that IS possible) that he did for a client on an early unit, and in that synopsis he shows a photo of a board that contains the EFB and IBAM mods together. I was also not able to find a schematic for this combined version.

Sorry for the long winded explanation but if you haven’t guessed by now I need some help to get the proper schematic for the early version of EFB with or without the combination of IBAM. I suspect that I must have missed a thread or two somewhere along the line. That may be because I am playing catch-up so much later in the game. Hopefully you fellows can take me by the hand so to speak.
 
Bob - Is this what you're looking for? Thorne

EDIT: If not, I also have rev 7 of the complete Fisher 400 schematic with EFB, IBAM and phase inverter mods. I also have rev 1, but it doesn't include IBAM.
 

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I can’t tell because unlike the ones I already have this one doesn’t specify which version of the 400 it is for, so I will have to compare it to what I have to see if it is different. The ones I have have more information and they are drawn much more formalized, suggesting that this one may have been a rough draft.
 
I also will check to see if I have revision 7 which may I assume is the latest and greatest? Thanks for your efforts to help me.
 
No, revision 11 is the latest I believe. I didn't think you wanted the latest. I'll bow out and wait for the experts to help you.
 
I could use the full schematic, either v.7 or v.11 or probably anything in between to verify the EFB drawing IF I knew that it was for the earlier version receiver. It appears that most of the focus has been on the later version especially since the problems with overstressing the output tubes is more critical due to the change in opt primary impedence in that version. But since I have an early version I don’t want to assume that the specs are the same.
 
I’m not looking for a schematic for the receiver. I’m looking for the schematic of the EFB modification that Dave Gillespie designed that is for the earlier 18xxxx series receiver. I apologize if I didn’t make myself clear earlier, and I do appreciate your effort. I am not familiar at all with the 400C unit you linked me to.
 
Hi Bob -- I apologize for the confusion you've experienced. I introduced EFB™ to the late version units because (1) that's what my unit was, and (2) the as produced design can be very hard on the output tubes. Fisher was certainly counting on the unit being used in the classic way it was likely to be used in the mid 60s -- for nice background music at a party, or dedicated listening sessions requiring little more than 2 or 3 watts average per channel -- and in that scenario, everything is fine, and nonbody's the wiser to any lurking issues. For the target individual Fisher was selling to, it was a pretty safe bet to take: FM only reception meant classical music during that day, and rather conservative listening levels. Now on the other hand however, if mom and dad leave for the weekend and junior has a party with the tunes cranked, now the tubes could get into real trouble. And finally, for me, part of my listening enjoyment is knowing that the equipment is all working properly within acceptable design standards for the components used, so that the piece can be operated without concern at any level within it's published capabilities, rather than only within some lower safe range within those capabilities. With today's use environment being very different from that of the mid 60s, I set out not only looking to improve performance, but primarily to fix the conditions of concern in the later version receivers. So that is how EFB came to be applied to the later version receivers.

The early version receivers to not suffer the potential damaging effects of the later versions, regardless of what power level the unit is asked to produce. Therefore, without the need to "fix" any circuit condition, and the fact that honestly, I had no idea how many folks (literally world wide) would actually take on the task of applying such a unique modification to their receiver, an EFB workup for the early receivers was never presented. And to be fair, the vast majority of those who have installed it (that I know of) have in fact been folks with later version units. So, the request for an EFB schematic for the early version units has really never materialized. Complicating that is my presentation in this thead, where I present a client's early 400 receiver with most of the bells and whistles installed, including EFB. Since a schematic for those versions was never posted (I don't recall anyway), it leads to folks like you shaking your head. Sorry about that.

When applied to the early version receivers, there are benefits to be had, although (obviously) not as great as that when applied to the later version units. In later version units, besides eliminating the possibility of damaging operating conditions, output tube quiescent current was (able to be) significantly lowered, as was (as a result) output tube and power transformer operating temps, which resulted in cooler operating temps for the unit as a whole, and an extension in output tube life. Power output was largely unchanged, but distortion for the power produced was significantly reduced.

For early version units, the application of EFB can provide for somewhat lower quiescent current (from the otherwise ideal operating point), having less impact therefore on operating temps and tube life (but more on that in a moment). However, power output under conditions of both channels being driven is definitely improved, as is distortion under that condition as well.

The ideal quiescent output tube cathode current in an early version receiver (in a perfect world), is 38 mA per tube. From the early version receiver's I've serviced, it seems clear that the Fisher operating conditions produce a quiescent current of about 43 mA per tube when B+ is 425 vdc. This gives a little leeway to account for sagging power supply voltages as power output is increased. It won't account for all of it, as quiescent current will certainly fall below optimum under continuous high power conditions -- but it (obviously) won't fall as far as if it were initially set to 35 or 38 mA. Against this however, I've read many accounts of folks who set the quiescent current in their receivers to 30 or 32 mA per tube, and often enough, as low as 25-27 mA -- erroring on the side of safety and tube life, given all the stories of earlier foreign produced tubes reaching critical mass if operated too hard -- except that these lower numbers (particularly the latter ones) will really impact the performance in early version units -- easily enough to be audible. Foreign produced tubes have gotten much better, but still the practice of setting the bias too low continues.

Against this backdrop, EFB applied to an early version receiver can help performance significantly. Quiescent cathode current can be set for the optimum setting of 38 mA (Pd = 15 watts), and the EFB circuits will hold that optimum B+/current relationship regardless of power output level produced (making power supply sag irrelevant). This lowers distortion, but equally importantly, allows the unit to produce an honest 30 watts RMS per channel with both channels driven, which represents an increase of 10 more available watts (5 per channel) over the stock design -- and at lower distortion than the stock design produced at lower power output capability.

So the benefits are there for early version units, but somewhat different from those provided for later version units. If this is something you are interested in pursuing, I'll try to get at least a hand drawn schematic sketch draw up and posted soon.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
Yes Dave, it helps a lot. I completely understood your description of the difference between how ESB impacts each version from the detailed explanations given in previous posts, but it wasn’t until later in my review of the documents that I learned it. So to cut to the charge the question for ma and my individual specimen is whether or not it is even necessary to consider that modification.

I can tell you the following:

With incoming line voltage of 124, plate voltages between 416 and 419 ( I assume Is due to the differences in the Opt winding resistance which varies slightly), and grid bias of -14v. I am calculating between 34.9 and 36.8 ma plate current for an average of about 12-13 watts per tube quiescent, using a matched quad of Russian EH 7868s. The screens are operating at 381 across the board. This, while being much lower than the maximum per the data sheet, doesn’t sound out of line to me, but it raises a question about whether the tubes are running too cold.

I follow Uncle Doug who is more into guitar amps and he preaches that tubes should be run at or just below 70% of their max specification, which he feels is a happy compromise between tube health and distortion. Of course a guitar amp loves at least some distortion so it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that his conclusion wouldn’t apply here. That being said, according to the RCA sheet quiescent plate current max is 64ma at 400 plate volts using fixed Bias. I have not as yet performed a THD analysis, but I intend to once I get my recently acquired 8903A up and running.

So I would welcome your comments on whether my unit operating as it is would benefit from ESB enough to make it worthwhile and whether you think that the operating parameters need to be tweaked if I don’t install ESB.
 
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