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Alternate Way to Look at Digital Vinyl

I think you're the first person to articulate what the article actually pointed out. I believe a lot of the analog/digital argument posters were folks that didn't read the article and commented based upon what others posted. I really found the addition of analog noise and the use of specific vinyl cutters to digital supplies really fascinating, and how they enhanced what the engineer listened to after it's completion. Thanks Will.
No I got all of that... I was merely trying to make the point that if it is indeed possible to put in some of that "analog dirt" into the digital recording process and to have the result sound convincing, then there certainly is a case that at least as far as sound quality goes that there isn't really such a great case that can be made for analog... recording or playback. I say this too as someone who collects LPs so beyond I'm not really denigrating vinyl either...

Beyond all of that it is interesting to think about how the idea of perfect clarity and realism for a lot of folks takes a backseat to a recording that has a bit of familiar old analog artifacts baked into it. I bet most of us would say that the whole clarity/realism thing is the most important thing, but that isn't necessarily what we would all choose in a test between that kind of thing and something with a bit of dirt in the mix...
 
No I got all of that... I was merely trying to make the point that if it is indeed possible to put in some of that "analog dirt" into the digital recording process and to have the result sound convincing, then there certainly is a case that at least as far as sound quality goes that there isn't really such a great case that can be made for analog... recording or playback. I say this too as someone who collects LPs so beyond I'm not really denigrating vinyl either...

Beyond all of that it is interesting to think about how the idea of perfect clarity and realism for a lot of folks takes a backseat to a recording that has a bit of familiar old analog artifacts baked into it. I bet most of us would say that the whole clarity/realism thing is the most important thing, but that isn't necessarily what we would all choose in a test between that kind of thing and something with a bit of dirt in the mix...
Read your response well and can't disagree with anything you've posted.
 
I shared this article with my brother, who is a recording engineer who does a lot of his recording on tape. These are some of his thoughts on the subject:


All of this is the reason that I still record to tape and mix on a console….even though there’s a lot of really good reasons not to, and most people don’t these days. I do transfer from tape and mix using the computer, but using it like a tape machine with the console doing the actual mixing/summing. This gives me some of the best of both worlds, and keeps wear on the old machines to a minimum.

I think that adding in imperfections isn't the same as analog imperfections though, for various reasons…some scientific, some just gut feelings. The complexity, randomness, and richness of the universe is expressed in analog…the amount of iron oxide particles for example on analog tape is a LOT. Digital is always a series of stair steps or still photos (like video), so is always just fooling us to being “real” like sounds in world. Similarly in the frequency domain, it has a steep cutoff….whereas analog can go well above and below our human hearing and gently roll off. I tend to think even though we can’t hear it, it matters. Also, tape recording is done with magnets, and that is just special in my opinion!
 
Digital is always a series of stair steps or still photos (like video), so is always just fooling us to being “real” like sounds in world.
It's sad to see a recording engineer fall for the roundly debunked "stairsteps" myth. :(
Similarly in the frequency domain, it has a steep cutoff….whereas analog can go well above and below our human hearing and gently roll off.
Oversampling eliminated the need for steep lowpass filters in DACs over 30 years ago. And if you really want to reproduce frequencies only bats can hear, hi-res sampling rates have been in common use for over 20 years.

And as for reproducing frequencies below the range of human hearing, try cutting a 5 Hz square wave on vinyl and let me know how that works out for you...
 
Oversampling eliminated the need for steep lowpass filters in DACs over 30 years ago.
That simply isn't true.

And if you really want to reproduce frequencies only bats can hear, hi-res sampling rates have been in common use for over 20 years.
It is used to minimize unavoidable phase distortion. If you're unable to hear the difference, that's fine but lots of others do.

Today's recording engineers really aren't fools. ;)
 
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It's sad to see a recording engineer fall for the roundly debunked "stairsteps" myth. :(

Oversampling eliminated the need for steep lowpass filters in DACs over 30 years ago. And if you really want to reproduce frequencies only bats can hear, hi-res sampling rates have been in common use for over 20 years.

And as for reproducing frequencies below the range of human hearing, try cutting a 5 Hz square wave on vinyl and let me know how that works out for you...

WillVT's brother here.

Ok, so this was an email to my brother-- not a forum post. I know the whole "roundly debunked stair step myth". Believe me, it's been discussed in our world a time or two /s. (the "analog is bad" folks always get the most upset and mean) However, aliasing is real, and there's a reason it's called a SAMPLE rate, and there's a reason that 44,100 times per second is the minimum rate for it to reproduce accurately for our hearing. I wasn't trying to write a novel to my brother about the article he sent me, so I said that as sort of a layman's term. However, to act like digital audio is not a series of "snapshots" is just plain wrong. This is why in production we need to be concerned about inter-sample peaks when we are mastering and getting close to 0 dbfs. Does that mean that digital audio is bad or you can hear it? No, and I didn't say that. I just like how analog tape works.

Believe it or not, many popular audio plugins that run in the DAWs that make the music you listen to, do not oversample. Many do, but those ones that don't are sending distortions back down into the audible range.

As far as your 5hz comment, I was referring to the gentle rolloff that my tape machines do, I'm not cutting 5hz to vinyl, so that's a ridicules comment....especially with vinyl's limitations. 44.1 due to Nyquist cuts sharply at 22khz, while my Otari at 15ips will gently roll off somewhere over 30khz. Can anybody blind test and hear that? No, but I can still like that it's happening. Obviously I know about hi res sample rates, I use them for that reason.

Anyways, my brother's original comment was about emotion and art and allowing imperfection. I don't give a sh** about the digital vs analog argument. I use digital every day, and for clients that want it, I record to tape.. However, I think you hifi guys tend to be unaware of the huge differences on the creation side of music of either format, instead thinking that our only considerations are of a technical nature. Here are a few of the major ones: 1) you don't do infinite takes on tape 2) You don't stare at a screen on tape. When there is a DAW running, everybody in the control room is staring at its GUI. There is research showing that stimuli into one sense takes away from the others. With tape you just listen. 3) Less editing capability on tape, so human performance has a higher value. More imperfections of performance are tolerated or work done until it is good, whereas in the DAW it's so easy to fix everything, and hard to not do it knowing you can. Same for tuning, etc. 4) many of us like the sound of tape. I have yet to find a tape simulation plugin that comes close to what it does to transients like drums.

I see other comments saying people prefer imperfect and "dirty" analog sounding recordings because they've been conditioned to it from previous recorded music. Perhaps, but I have another 2 part theory-- one for distion, and one for noise floor. The world we live in is full of audio distortions...even our eardrums will distort at loud volumes. Reflections, filters, things rattling, that's the real world. Why did live sax players in the be-bop era start to do the growl kind of sound? Why did guitar players start to distort amps in the 50s? Why did djembe players in Africa put rattling metal things on their drums? Singers distorting their voice to be gravely... Snares on drums....etc etc. Because people liked the sound of it!! It is the sound of harmonics and overtones, and anything that's not a pure sine wave has them. So that's distortion, now for noise floor, which is where digital really performs better than tape. My theory here starts with the fact that the world always has a noise floor. Being in an anechoic chamber can make people sick...we have not evolved to be in that environment. In fact we have evolved to be able to pick specific sounds out of "the noise". The hiss of tape, the sound of rain....some people have even "heard" this sound while on psychedelic journeys, and refer to it as the sound of the universe or something. Anyways, I consider some amount of noise floor to be important in my productions. Some plugins that emulate analog gear make this hiss, and I've had clients request more noise floor.

I think all of you would be surprised how much of the modern studio-- both outboard analog gear and "in the box" plugins are for saturation, which is the new chosen word for distortion. The most famous compressors, preamps, and microphones are loved for their unique non-linearities. Transformers and tubes. Even the seemingly clean sounding pop mixes you hear are using tons of saturation in small doses all over the mix, just as he stated in the article. So in conjunction with the creative workflow difference I mentioned above, it should be no surprise that musicians and engineers still use analog recording mediums.
 
However, to act like digital audio is not a series of "snapshots" is just plain wrong. This is why in production we need to be concerned about inter-sample peaks when we are mastering and getting close to 0 dbfs. Does that mean that digital audio is bad or you can hear it? No, and I didn't say that.
The mere existence of inter-sample peaks proves that the reconstruction filter in your DAC is doing what its name suggests, and reconstructing the original waveform, rather than just "connecting the dots" as some people think.

True-Peak-Inline-Waveform-Zoom-1024x640@2x.jpg

As far as your 5hz comment, I was referring to the gentle rolloff that my tape machines do, I'm not cutting 5hz to vinyl, so that's a ridicules comment....especially with vinyl's limitations.
I was responding to the claim that unlike digital, "analog can go well above and below our human hearing". The underlined part is simply not true. Most analog masters are highpass filtered at 40 Hz, and vinyl masters have the bass summed to mono below 100 or sometimes even 200 Hz. Digital has neither of these limitations.
 
The mere existence of inter-sample peaks proves that the reconstruction filter in your DAC is doing what its name suggests, and reconstructing the original waveform, rather than just "connecting the dots" as some people think.

True-Peak-Inline-Waveform-Zoom-1024x640@2x.jpg


I was responding to the claim that unlike digital, "analog can go well above and below our human hearing". The underlined part is simply not true. Most analog masters are highpass filtered at 40 Hz, and vinyl masters have the bass summed to mono below 100 or sometimes even 200 Hz. Digital has neither of these limitations.

Lol, the underlined part you are contesting even says "can go", not always goes....I wasn't talking about masters or vinyl. In my email to my brother, I was talking about analog signals flowing through my console and in and out of my tape machine, and that they are not being high passed or low passed unless I choose for them to be. However when they hit my DACs, things get steep low passed depending on my sample rate

As I said I think digital audio is great and I use it every day professionally. I also didn't say that inter-sample peaks aren't something that hasn't been accounted for, I was just pointing out that we DO account for them when we are limiting in mastering, and was using their existence to point out that there is an unknown (to the ADC) "space" in between samples. I'm not saying this is a problem, more that I just like that analog resolution works in a different way. With tape, noise-floor is really what we are battling, the resolution and frequency response is very good on good machines with good tape. The gentle frequency roll offs are more like our ears, and probably other aspects of sound in nature. And for somebody on the creation side, it's just plain fun.

Also, I like vinyl records, but from the email that was quoted and in my reply to you, I have been referring to analog tape. Vinyl is a consumer medium, and we all know about the summed low end, noise floor, limited dynamic range, inner grooves, etc. Frankly I think it's pretty cool that vinyl sounds as good as it does for being such an old tech.
 
M & M- LPs sound, 'auditorily feel' - to your soul & being... simply wonderful, natural. :) They have the - " cosmic energy - yeah bash! "

Some CDs sound amazing too!

:beerchug:
 
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However, I think you hifi guys tend to be unaware of the huge differences on the creation side of music of either format, instead thinking that our only considerations are of a technical nature. Here are a few of the major ones: 1) you don't do infinite takes on tape 2) You don't stare at a screen on tape. When there is a DAW running, everybody in the control room is staring at its GUI. There is research showing that stimuli into one sense takes away from the others. With tape you just listen. 3) Less editing capability on tape, so human performance has a higher value. More imperfections of performance are tolerated or work done until it is good, whereas in the DAW it's so easy to fix everything, and hard to not do it knowing you can. Same for tuning, etc

Sounds like this is a human issue, not a digital DAW issue. The truth is that a DAW could be used just like a multitrack recorder but without the inherent frustrations of analog R2R recording. Music producers and engineers don't have to tweak everything to boring perfection. It's just that so many choose to do so. Producers could instead use the older style "natural" philosophy in recording digitally and it should sound in the same vein as the older analog stuff. I know this to be true because newer digitally recorded CDs I've bought in fact sound this way. Any type of past recorded "sound" should be re-creatable in today's digital environment if the producer(s) and/or engineer(s) have the will and ability to do so. None of this though is meant to disparage actual analog recording. If those that were creating music I liked were using this recording technique, I would be just as interested as I otherwise would with digital.

So, DDD vinyl, huh?

I didn't think this was possible. Doesn't the last letter indicate the technology used to play back the music? Unless I'm missing something, turntables are analog devices, as opposed to CD players.

Today's recording engineers really aren't fools.

You might think otherwise listening to some of today's Top 40.
 
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