Ancient question: tubes or solid state?
- Thread starter socioloco
- Start date
wineslob
Wiping out white van
LOL. We will indeed be biased in this forum (into pure class-A SET goodness!)
But seriously, one reason is that tubes produce sweeter, more pleasing forms of distortion to the human ear. So while they measure badly on paper compared to their SS counterparts, they actually can sound less fatiguing and more enjoyable.
Judging by your signature, go SS .
They can also, because of this kind of distortion, make horn speakers sound less fatiguing, hence the whole "matching" gambit.
socioloco
Freakapottamus
This is a comic character named "El Papupapa".
It's from a Venezuelan TV show named "Radio Rochela".
Here it is Pepeto, the actor himself (this page is in spanish, sorry for that):
http://www.rctv.net/Biografias/VerBiografia.aspx?BiografiaId=82
orionkc
Smooth
He kind of reminds me of Marty Feldman...got those spooky eyes goin' on...
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00186/Marty_Feldman_ameri_186080m.jpg
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00186/Marty_Feldman_ameri_186080m.jpg
John L
Chief Bloviator
Both Tubes and SS are nice. However, I am only in to early solid state, such as late 60s and early 70s. My favorite SS is my Dokorder 800X and Sansui 5000/2000Xs. Anything else is overkill.
But I especially love my Bogen RPF60, better than my other tube units. I can't explain exactly why, but those 30 wpc are Very Strong and sound sooooooooo wonderful.
But I especially love my Bogen RPF60, better than my other tube units. I can't explain exactly why, but those 30 wpc are Very Strong and sound sooooooooo wonderful.
reggaenaut
Addicted Member
That was the person I was trying to remember.
reggaenaut
Addicted Member
I am glad that Loco stood his ground and explained himself: tubers are sensitive people.
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
Since we are playing in a civil fashion, I'll share my experiences. The first amp I ever knew was a mono tube amp. Grew up with that for years. I loved to sit and "watch" the tubes for hours on end, day after day. Then my dad got a stereo Kenwood receiver, not nearly as fun to watch.
Fast forward a dozen years and I finally get to add a tube amp to my setup. I was into multi-amped systems at that time (as now) and didn't like the tube amp on the woofers, but did like it very much for the tweeters. I kept that in play for over a decade. I then switched from smallish ESL tweeters (RTR ERS-6) to a large panel tweeter from X-Static. This new tweeter had several input taps, and with my tube amp having several output taps I had many happy-half hours playing with all the combinations of possible connections. I ended up with what would appear to be a wacky mismatch with a small resistor in series. Sounded good and I used it for years.
As zenith2134 mentioned, tubes are often characterized by a pleasing distortion. One day, when I was preparing to retube this amp, I switched in a solid state amp. It was then that I learned that I prefer the lack of distortion as opposed to pleasing distortion, and I've been a solid stater ever since.
Fast forward a dozen years and I finally get to add a tube amp to my setup. I was into multi-amped systems at that time (as now) and didn't like the tube amp on the woofers, but did like it very much for the tweeters. I kept that in play for over a decade. I then switched from smallish ESL tweeters (RTR ERS-6) to a large panel tweeter from X-Static. This new tweeter had several input taps, and with my tube amp having several output taps I had many happy-half hours playing with all the combinations of possible connections. I ended up with what would appear to be a wacky mismatch with a small resistor in series. Sounded good and I used it for years.
As zenith2134 mentioned, tubes are often characterized by a pleasing distortion. One day, when I was preparing to retube this amp, I switched in a solid state amp. It was then that I learned that I prefer the lack of distortion as opposed to pleasing distortion, and I've been a solid stater ever since.
Part of the equation is what your taste in speakers runs to and how big a space you have to fill with said speakers. If your needs run to high wattage amps, then SS is likely to be much more practical and affordable. Granted, there are some pretty high-output tube units (I saw one of 200+w/ch recently), but they get really big and expensive to keep running.
Like House de Kris, I grew up with a mono tube amp and I still have an addiction to the tube sound. Having said that, I'm running SS at the moment and enjoying it very much. Nice to have the alternative and a change once in awhile keeps things fresh.
Like House de Kris, I grew up with a mono tube amp and I still have an addiction to the tube sound. Having said that, I'm running SS at the moment and enjoying it very much. Nice to have the alternative and a change once in awhile keeps things fresh.
John L
Chief Bloviator
Here's my take. I am 63, and started out tubed. My first unit was a Fisher X202B, and Sherwood 3000 tuner, that I got from Dad, when he went up to the X202C and a fisher tuner. I was in college then, in the mid 60s.
Since then I moved to SS, and never looked back, but I certainly wish I had those units still. However, as I have aged, my hearing tastes have changed in that I have reverted back to older SS units(Marantz 2250, and Dokorder 800X) They sound different from most SS units.
Also, the tubes sound more appealing to me now. It must have to do with my hearing as I age. Perhaps you too will experience this change.
Since then I moved to SS, and never looked back, but I certainly wish I had those units still. However, as I have aged, my hearing tastes have changed in that I have reverted back to older SS units(Marantz 2250, and Dokorder 800X) They sound different from most SS units.
Also, the tubes sound more appealing to me now. It must have to do with my hearing as I age. Perhaps you too will experience this change.
I found this article very interesting. I've been curious about tubes vs. ss for a while and read a few typically testy "discussions" when I was in the market for a new amp/receiver years ago, but I didn't see too much practical info for comparison. The info in the article seems like it would be consistent with the varying arguments on either side.
I am not an expert on this topic so I have a couple of questions (hoping to get some honest info, not start a flame war - also please forgive my ignorance):
The article claims that the main difference in sound between tube and ss occurs when an amp is overdriven, creating different harmonic distortion effects, and that otherwise they sound similar. So it would follow that the more often an amp is in an overdriven state, the greater the effect of the harmonic distortion. So, how often is an amp in an overdriven state? Seems like if you have a high powered SS (or tube) amp or one with a lot of headroom, the effects of the harmonics (positive or negative) would not come into play. Does this make sense? Or is the "overdrive" that is causing the harmonics unrelated to an amp's power. Am I missing something?
Is the harmonic effect described in the article the "distortion" that people say gives tubes their sonic character? If so, does this mean that tube amps are purposefully overdriven to get this quality (or, since they are usually lower powered relative to SS, maybe they are by nature overdriven more often, resulting in the "tube sound"??)? This would explain some people's preference for very low-powered tube amps - even more of that "tube sound" (pleasing harmonic distortion)!
If all this is correct, there are a couple of conclusions I would come to ("hypotheses" really since I don't know and I'm looking for comments
): - It would seem that a high-powered tube amp would be impractical, since it should sound similar to a 'GOOD' high powered SS amp (for a lot more $$)
- Low-powered SS amps/receivers run the risk of having the 3rd harmonic 'muted' effect since they would more likely be overdriven, so more power is generally desirable for SS amps/receivers
(Related, SS only):
- Since there are more than a few highly-regarded low-power SS amps/receivers, especially from the 'golden era', there must be other factors in otherwise equal amps that might favor LESS power - number of transistors? Anything else? Again, assuming they are of equal 'quality'. Or are these low-power amps just 'built well' and the fact that they are low power merely a matter of chance/coincidence?
Right, wrong, yes, no? Please comment on any of the above! (assuming all other criteria are ideal, i.e. NOT taking into account system synergy, room effects, speaker placement, etc., which certainly have a large impact on the perception of equipment.)
This article was written in 1972 - any other practical info on tube vs. SS since then?
socioloco
Freakapottamus
That is it...
That's it. That was what I was looking for. Your personal experience, your personal tastes, not a discussion of what's better or what's worst, not an only theorethical debate about watts an Db... (that would be, for shure, a dead horse)
I was wondering what do you people think about this stuff. I am new at Hi Fi stuff and I am experimenting now with diffrent kind of speakers and amps...
Got a mini tube amp named Fatman, just 13W per channel, it's sweet, but just for little speakers...
Then we have a SS Pioneer Sx-203, don't know how many W P C , some specs says 80w other says 70 W.
The Pioneer it's more clear... the fatman it's more sweet... that it's exactly the difference that I heard between SS and Tubes...
More equipment it's on the way, I will make moer experimentation, I will keep you up to date.
:thmbsp:
That's it. That was what I was looking for. Your personal experience, your personal tastes, not a discussion of what's better or what's worst, not an only theorethical debate about watts an Db... (that would be, for shure, a dead horse)
I was wondering what do you people think about this stuff. I am new at Hi Fi stuff and I am experimenting now with diffrent kind of speakers and amps...
Got a mini tube amp named Fatman, just 13W per channel, it's sweet, but just for little speakers...
Then we have a SS Pioneer Sx-203, don't know how many W P C , some specs says 80w other says 70 W.
The Pioneer it's more clear... the fatman it's more sweet... that it's exactly the difference that I heard between SS and Tubes...
More equipment it's on the way, I will make moer experimentation, I will keep you up to date.
:thmbsp:
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Actually, you'll find that there are several members here who enjoy very big speakers on very small tube amplifiers.
There's definitely some magic to be had with the combination of high efficiency horns and small tube power.:yes:
socioloco
Freakapottamus
How we know how eficient are some horns? it's something about the Db sensitivity??? Higher the number... lower the watts needed for moving them?
Got this towers with this specs, do you think the fatman could move them? :scratch2:
Fatman Itube specs:
Pwer Output 13Wx2
Frequency Response 20Hz – 20KHz (±1.5Db)
Harmonic Distortion 0.5%
Signal-To-Noise Ratio 86Db
Input Impedance 100K
Output Impedance 4ohm, 8ohm
Valve Type 2x6N1(ECC85) 1x6E2(EM87)
PSB Image T65 Tower Specifications
Frequency Range
On Axis @ 0° ±1.5dB 42-20,000 Hz
On Axis @ 0° ±3dB 30-23,000 Hz
Off Axis @ 30° ±1.5dB 42-10,000 Hz
Lf Cutoff -10dB 25 Hz
Sensitivity
1w (2.83V) @ 1m, IEC-filtered Pink Noise, C-weighted
Anechoic Chamber 92 dB
Typical Listening Room 94 dB
Impedence
Nominal 6 Ohms
Minimum 4 Ohms
Input Power
RMS, Clipping < 10% of the Time
Recommended 10-200 Watts
Program 150 Watts
Acoustic Design
Tweeter (Nominal) 1" (25mm)
Aluminium Dome with Ferrofluid
Woofer (Nominal) 3 x 6 1/2" (165mm)
Injection Molded
Metalized Polypropylene Cone
Rubber Surround
Crossover 2,500Hz, B3; 500Hz, LR4
Internal Volume Design Type 2.35 cu ft (65.8 liter)
Bass Reflex
3 x 2" Front Port
Video Shielded
Sure, just don't expect ear shattering volume levels. I'm currently running 15 WPC 6V6 PP amps through Klipsch KG 4 which have 94dB sensitivity (which means that 1 watt will produce 94dB at 1 meter), and they have plenty of juice in the smallish room I have them in.
Btw, pardon me for my earlier outbursts in your threads. I apologize.
socioloco
Freakapottamus
Don't worry man... :thmbsp:
that means the that if they have more sensitivity, more dB that means more noise (music) for less watts, right???
That's sweet, I'll connect them tonight and listen... I was just afraid to do it until now because was afraid to damage the equipment!!!
let's do it!
socioloco
Freakapottamus
Yes. Here's a good article on speaker sensitivity:
http://www.goodsound.com/features.shtml
Good luck and keep us posted!
reggaenaut
Addicted Member
I am partial to el84 amps. I have a modified EICO 2536 receiver (17 watts/ch) which I use mainly as a power amp and a GROMMES 24P integrated (13 watts/ch). They are sweet sounding amps. I would certainly like to try them with big efficient speakers but I have to heed domestic harmony. For ss I like medium wattage. I find very pleasing to my ear the sound of early Sony receivers and amps. SS/Tube is a personal affair.
Good luck in your adventure Socioloco.
Good luck in your adventure Socioloco.
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