Curious, why the blue vs white?
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anyone else running vintage Empire carts?
- Thread starter gadget73
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Curious, why the blue vs white?
Tucked into the notes on tVOM's Empire 235-Dxx page is the sad little insert "235-SDE only blue".
He's a one-man operation, so it's just possible-- don't want to raise hopes carelessly-- that he found some white 235-SDEs for the 999 TE/X but forgot to edit that note. It might be worthwhile to send him a no-text quickie email with something like Any 235-SDE whites, perchance? (NT) in the subject field.
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Cylontymany
Super Member
What about 232-D7 EV PM2407DE and Diamant 5579
Free Speaker
Member
The stylus for the 999vex, the 235-vde, is rare as well but maybe a bit less rare then the 236-ZDE 1000 ZEX stylus is. It's also purple, so it matches the plastic mount of later 999-ve carts (maybe all 999-ve's have plastic mounts?, as a replacement for the 888-PE that never had a plastic mount?). But as I lamented in these back pages, the insertion tube is shorter on the 235-vde and 236-zde styli than the tube on the white and blue 235-sde styli or any of the 888 series styli or the original 999VE purple stylus, resulting in a lower volume output. It just requires turning up the receiver or preamp volume up a little, but still. I've had good luck with the aforementioned white 235 SDE stylus, as well as the white 888-TE and pink 888-VE styli. There may an inductance mismatch using the 888 styli and the white or blue 235-sde styli with the higher inductance 999-VE engine, but since the volume is stronger, it seems to work out well enough, at least for typical 60's and 70's rock music. Says me anyways.
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Haven't tried them myself (the PM2407DE is a generic S888E and Diamant 5579 is a générique S999VE sold on eBay from lepetitdiamant in France)... Anyone?
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RemoWilliams
Addicted Member
Anyone else use a Nagaoka Stylus? The number is GD 89-401E for the 4000D, I purchased one from Rivtone awhile back but do not see any others for sale anywhere so not certain if it is still produced. Once it wears out I will most likely get a Jico Shibita or higher.
I think the cartridge is worth the cost personally. Listening to a AT VM 95 ML as well and the Empire, at least with this particular stylus is at least as good. Mind you the turntable is a Sansui XR Q7 whereas the 95ML is mounted on a Sansui SR 525. The Q7 certainly has the ability to extract music.
Is there a different Empire cartridge body I should consider? I have a variety of other cartridges and going to invest ia VM 740xML at some point but still enjoy the vintage ones I have - Shure, Pickering, ADC, Ortofon and SAE.
I think the cartridge is worth the cost personally. Listening to a AT VM 95 ML as well and the Empire, at least with this particular stylus is at least as good. Mind you the turntable is a Sansui XR Q7 whereas the 95ML is mounted on a Sansui SR 525. The Q7 certainly has the ability to extract music.
Is there a different Empire cartridge body I should consider? I have a variety of other cartridges and going to invest ia VM 740xML at some point but still enjoy the vintage ones I have - Shure, Pickering, ADC, Ortofon and SAE.
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Got my hands on a NOS Walco replacement stylus. Sounds pretty darn good to me! I like the higher level of bass for rock, Purple Rain baby! Thanks to those on this tread for discussing it and others previously. I couldn't find any info on the tracking force so have played around between 1 and 2g.
I'm new here and have found myself coming back repeatedly to learn. I appreciate having a resource, years of experience are on this thread and forum.
I'm new here and have found myself coming back repeatedly to learn. I appreciate having a resource, years of experience are on this thread and forum.
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A good reason to consider a different cartridge body is when it affords you entry into a group of original styli that are both available and affordable. I often suggest getting either an 888 body or, preferably, a body from the next lineup, the one headed by the 1000ZE/X. Original made-in-USA styli for many of these models are available off the shelf.
Glad to hear you're having good luck with a Nagaoka replacement stylus. I don't see those too often.
Rolls-Royce
Active Member
I have one of those Nagaokas from RiverTone for my 4000D/I. It sounds OK but I sure wish I had a working original Empire 4000 stylus to compare it to.
I took the same advice not too long ago and it led me down the Empire rabbit hole. It's a journey, but the music they play makes it a very enjoyable ride!
My personal fave so far is the PRO-1 (man in black there in the middle) and there are a couple on eBay now that are not too expensive. It sounds wonderful on my set up, a hair above those pictured. I just hunted down a NOS 238-DQ aaand a 238-DEQ for that 4000D in the back and as soon as it arrives I'll contemplate opening one of them to test while I stare at them in my cabinet lol.
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Anything for you Wualta. It tests at 988mH. The cantilever is thicker than any other genuine Empire I've seen in my admittedly short time. This fits your theory about it being targeted for DJs.
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Thanks for the measurement. That's higher than the Broadcast One and the 2000Z. Not higher in the sense of a clearly audible difference if you swapped in the BC1 stylus, but it differs enough to consider the PRO-1 as a separate model, in my opinon. Do you by any chance have any paperwork for the cartridge where Empire described what market(s) the PRO-1 was meant to serve?
I didn't get any paperwork with this one, no. Will keep my eyes open though.
The shank of this PRO-1 stylus is not copper like all my other empire styluses. It's a silver colored alloy and appears to be much more resistant to tarnish. I have several styluses purchased NOS and none look as good as this PRO-1 that got used out of curiosity.
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I'm still digging into this huge thread. Today I came across prior posts about some of the metal clippy-do's being taller than others and I looked through my carts to assess. Sure enough! All my higher end cartridges came with the taller clip with a dimple except the Pro-1 previously mentioned.
Question 1: Was the taller clip used for specific models or generally mixed in?
I was testing out a NOS needle and noticed a difference in angles in the cantilever where the cartridge body would hang very close to the record surface. This resolved completely after I swapped over to the taller cartridge clip. I suspected a "mushy" suspension at first, but when I test it with a q tip it seems pretty firm and unlike the one I frankenstylus-ed earlier that was definitely mushy and later failed completely. Additionally, the cantilever angle on the needle I'm playing now seemed low right out of the box. Who knows what happened to this thing over it's life (perhaps it really isn't NOS and was abused) but it certainly appears to have been set to this angle vs. being mushed into it. The needle plays fantastic now with the higher clippy-do!
Question 2: Is it possible that shallower cantilever angles were intentionally used in certain models of styluses/carts?
Question 1: Was the taller clip used for specific models or generally mixed in?
I was testing out a NOS needle and noticed a difference in angles in the cantilever where the cartridge body would hang very close to the record surface. This resolved completely after I swapped over to the taller cartridge clip. I suspected a "mushy" suspension at first, but when I test it with a q tip it seems pretty firm and unlike the one I frankenstylus-ed earlier that was definitely mushy and later failed completely. Additionally, the cantilever angle on the needle I'm playing now seemed low right out of the box. Who knows what happened to this thing over it's life (perhaps it really isn't NOS and was abused) but it certainly appears to have been set to this angle vs. being mushed into it. The needle plays fantastic now with the higher clippy-do!
Question 2: Is it possible that shallower cantilever angles were intentionally used in certain models of styluses/carts?
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Looking just like the one in your photo, there were genuine S4000D/III grips with no Empire logo on the flipper as we usually find. Instead, it was on a sticker on top of the grip, backwards R and all. The little copyright C was hidden on the front of the grip, with metal arms holding the flipper. The final version was the familiar all-plastic job.
But there was a third version, metal arms and all, with the old normal-R Empire logo on the flipper's front surrounded by a box of gold, looking very much like the previous generation's top styli, eg, the 1000ZE/X's, with the new backwards-R logo on the body. This is the version we see in the ads and in the magazine tests. Was it first, and the stickered one second for some furshlugginer reason? Empire!
All that aside, I don't know that Empire changed the VTA on some styli other than to accommodate a change in SRA, the angle of the diamond. Empires bridge the era of the gradual transition from 15° to 20°, so some of the jiggerypokery we see has to do with that, but there did seem to be a lot of extra Empirey futzing, just as with the stylus grips.
The 2000E series seemed to come down to us with high clips fairly consistently. I can't speak for the 4000Ds, but I imagine the early ones had to have a similar consistency, because CD-4. We'll have to poll owners-from-new to answer your question.
I confess I find the sheer variety of extant clips to be inexplicable. When Empire had to adjust cantilevers and diamonds, did they have to make different clips? They should've, but did they? Gotta remember, though, that consumer-owners weren't as highly trained as we are in these enlightened times.
If you have a non-888 and it's riding dangerously low, check the suspension by gently flexing it to see if the cantilever returns to its resting position. If not, it's most likely that rubber aging problem about which we speak only in hushed tones.
But there was a third version, metal arms and all, with the old normal-R Empire logo on the flipper's front surrounded by a box of gold, looking very much like the previous generation's top styli, eg, the 1000ZE/X's, with the new backwards-R logo on the body. This is the version we see in the ads and in the magazine tests. Was it first, and the stickered one second for some furshlugginer reason? Empire!
All that aside, I don't know that Empire changed the VTA on some styli other than to accommodate a change in SRA, the angle of the diamond. Empires bridge the era of the gradual transition from 15° to 20°, so some of the jiggerypokery we see has to do with that, but there did seem to be a lot of extra Empirey futzing, just as with the stylus grips.
The 2000E series seemed to come down to us with high clips fairly consistently. I can't speak for the 4000Ds, but I imagine the early ones had to have a similar consistency, because CD-4. We'll have to poll owners-from-new to answer your question.
I confess I find the sheer variety of extant clips to be inexplicable. When Empire had to adjust cantilevers and diamonds, did they have to make different clips? They should've, but did they? Gotta remember, though, that consumer-owners weren't as highly trained as we are in these enlightened times.
If you have a non-888 and it's riding dangerously low, check the suspension by gently flexing it to see if the cantilever returns to its resting position. If not, it's most likely that rubber aging problem about which we speak only in hushed tones.
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Doug G.
Lunatic Member
I don't think anybody agrees with me and my idea that, rather than the clips being deliberately changed by design, there was tooling damage and they had to redo it by raising where the bulge was and turning it into a slot, thus changing the angle of the cartridge blob when the top of the clip is parallel to the record surface.
Of course, a way to find out would be to see if the diamond angle in relation to the cantilever mount is actually different from ones using the high lift clip or if they changed the angle of the bend in the cantilever where the diamond is mounted and if, in fact it correlates to when the standard VTA changed from 15 degrees to 20 degrees.
We could find out if I'm correct or if I am kind of like a cantilever that has been twisted all out of any possible use whatsoever.
Doug
Of course, a way to find out would be to see if the diamond angle in relation to the cantilever mount is actually different from ones using the high lift clip or if they changed the angle of the bend in the cantilever where the diamond is mounted and if, in fact it correlates to when the standard VTA changed from 15 degrees to 20 degrees.
We could find out if I'm correct or if I am kind of like a cantilever that has been twisted all out of any possible use whatsoever.
Doug
Jeannot61
Active Member
My two Empire 2000 E III cartridges originally came with a low mount (15°). I found a high mount (20°) on eBay, and I tried it on the cartridges with an OEM diamond, but I went back to the low mount. I found a 2000 E for my brother-in-law, but it was mounted with a refurbished high mount. With the low mount, the small flat lower part of the cartridge is perfectly parallel to the record, while with the high mount, it is the base of the diamond's plastic that is parallel to the record. I think when a diamond suspension is still perfectly functional, the low mount works perfectly. However, when the suspension is worn out (I don’t have this problem with my various diamonds), then the high mount should suit better.