anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[Jeannot61]

Briefest answer I can think of to your question: The best stylus for a 2000E/III cartridge body, with the proviso that it measures ~1100 ohms and not ~500 ohms, is indeed the S2000E/III.

That said, I wouldn't turn up my nose at an S2000E/I, because though the published specs differ, the audible difference is minimal.

And to return to the diamond for Empire 2000 E II, there are no differences, apart from its color, compared to the diamond for Empire 2000 E III, and it plays perfectly in the body of my Empire 2000 E III cartridge (~1100 ohms).

 

[Doug G.]

The specifications between a 2000 E/III and 2000 E/II are so close, it would probably be only in a laboratory setting under controlled conditions that would reveal any audible differences. Heck, I can't hear any difference between an S2000 E/III stylus and an S2000 E/I stylus under normal playing conditions.

The original 2000 series (2000 E - 2000 E/III) bodies are all the same.

Doug

 

[1tumbleweed]

IIRC (Very suspect this far down the road), it's not the diamond that's different, it's the suspension. IE, a II tracks lighter than a I, and a III tracks lighter than a II. Maybe.

 

[Doug G.]

Correct. The styli on the I - III are the same (.nude 2 mil X .7 mil. The E is .3 mil X .7 mil. The 2000 is .7 spherical.) and the bodies are the same. The difference is in the suspension.

Oops, I should have said the diamonds are the same. The I and II have a tapered cantilever while the i, E, and 2000 have a cylindrical cantilever.

Doug

 

[Jeannot61]

The specifications between a 2000 E/III and 2000 E/II are so close, it would probably be only in a laboratory setting under controlled conditions that would reveal any audible differences. Heck, I can't hear any difference between an S2000 E/III stylus and an S2000 E/I stylus under normal playing conditions.

The original 2000 series (2000 E - 2000 E/III) bodies are all the same.

Doug

In fact, at the production output, Empire operated like CPU or GPU manufacturers do today; they conduct tests, the best produce the largest processors, requiring little power to run, even with many cores, while the less capable produce smaller processors, needing more power, even with significantly fewer cores. Therefore, the cartridges were tested for differences in balance, impedance, output levels, and then assigned different references. Consequently, Empire E III > E II > E I > E > 2000 simple

 

[wualta]

I don't have a 2000E, but would be interested in hearing from anyone who has it and a 2000E/I for a comparison. I'm curious, but there's another aspect:

When Gramophone's Geoffrey Horn tested the 2000E and 2000 in November 1977, he compared them to a 2000Z he had on hand and could immediately hear the differences (not surprising), especially on good equipment (also not surprising, so be careful what you wish for, &c). Interestingly, he preferred the conical 2000 over the 2000E. He did declare the cheaper styli good value for money, so it wasn't just another bashing of the bloody peasants bein' repressed, thus showing the violence inherent in the system.

 

[Doug G.]

Correct. The styli on the I - III are the same (.nude 2 mil X .7 mil. The E is .3 mil X .7 mil. The 2000 is .7 spherical.) and the bodies are the same. The difference is in the suspension.

Oops, I should have said the diamonds are the same. The I and II have a tapered cantilever while the i, E, and 2000 have a cylindrical cantilever.

Doug

Jeez, I STILL didn't get it right. I meant the II and III have tapered cantilevers and the I, 2000E, and 2000 have cylindrical cantilevers.

Doug

 

[Jeannot61]

Jeez, I STILL didn't get it right. I meant the II and III have tapered cantilevers and the I, 2000E, and 2000 have cylindrical cantilevers.

Doug

Indeed, however, the diamonds for E III (and certainly also for E II) post 85 have a cylindrical cantilever with a black dot, like today's diamonds. However, I confirm that when listening, I cannot distinguish between a pre 85 (conical cantilever) and a post 85 (cylindrical cantilever). It has nothing to do with today's reproductions, where there is still sibilance on certain music tracks. A NOS remains a NOS, and has nothing to do with a contemporary reproduction.

 

[Anton1975]

This thread has made me curious, though I didn't read all of it, so I've purchased a 2000 E/I. Enjoying the sound as well a the looks!

 

[Jeannot61]

Great The diamond you have is a contemporary piece, it is spherical, and produces a softer sound, or is less precise than a NOS diamond, but you should already have a good result with it. I also have one like that; it's not too bad while waiting to find a better diamond
However, it was delivered with a higher stand than the original ones, it works too, but personally, I prefer it with a lower stand (it's a matter of personal preference).

 

[hogwylde09]

Guess this must be a 2000

 

[Jeannot61]

The color of the "smoke" plastic indeed suggests that it is a 2000, for the 2000 E I, it would need a transparent green.

 

[wualta]

This thread has made me curious, though I didn't read all of it, so I've purchased a 2000 E/I. Enjoying the sound as well a the looks!

That stylus appears to be a generic, but if you bought it separately, please let us know where you found it, since we're always on the lookout for good-sounding generic styli. If it came with the cartridge, simply enjoy.

Guess this must be a 2000

If the stylus is made-in-USA Empire, it's a 2000E elliptical. The 2000 stylus is a translucent brown ("smoke").

 

[KSM74]

That stylus appears to be a generic, but if you bought it separately, please let us know where you found it, since we're always on the lookout for good-sounding generic styli. If it came with the cartridge, simply enjoy.

This needle is most likely Tonar 856-DS - https://www.dacapoaudio.com/3410-Empire-Scientific-2000-styli.html

 

[Anton1975]

Yeah, looks like it's indeed not the original stylus and I didn't realise as it was advertised as the 2000 E I. I th8nk I'll use as is while scouting for a different stylus down the line.

 

[wualta]

If you're enjoying the sound, and you got a good-sounding cartridge + stylus for a decent price, it's good as-is. Many sellers don't know how to properly identify what they're selling when it comes to all the nutty ins and outs of phono cartridges.

Da Capo will even sell you a generic stylus with an advanced diamond cut-- I see a Shibata and what they're calling a "Hyper elliptical". Not cheap, though.

 

[KSM74]

Yeah, looks like it's indeed not the original stylus and I didn't realise as it was advertised as the 2000 E I. I th8nk I'll use as is while scouting for a different stylus down the line

Japanese replicas for the Empire are better suited for Japanese turntables with medium tonearms than the top-end originals, which are designed for light tonearms.

 

[kels83]

Correct. The styli on the I - III are the same (.nude 2 mil X .7 mil. The E is .3 mil X .7 mil. The 2000 is .7 spherical.) and the bodies are the same. The difference is in the suspension.

Oops, I should have said the diamonds are the same. The I and II have a tapered cantilever while the i, E, and 2000 have a cylindrical cantilever.

Doug

Has anyone dove into the differences in these suspensions? I'm looking for understanding after having two (believed to be original) 239-PDE styluses fail on me. I had one on the cart that pulled me into the world of empire carts. I bought a used replacement that sounded fantastic but also quickly failed.

The suspensions in the 239-PDEs I have are both colored green, while others I've looked at are black. I know the color of rubber products doesn't always mean anything, but it does indicate material type in automotive o-ring applications (oil vs. fuel vs. high pressure, etc). The green grommet material looks and feels like neoprene o-rings I use in auto AC systems. After having two fail, I have to wonder if this green suspension material is more prone to failure? Sample bias of 2.

I extracted one green suspension grommet to inspect and it is definitely much softer material than a black suspension grommet from a lower stylus in this line. The green grommetted stylus was playing well at first, then collapsed onto the record. Once removed, the green grommet seems to be in good condition, but the adhesive failed and allowed the cantilever to slide back to up into the stylus shank. I'm thinking the collapsed cantilever was due to failed adhesive, not old rubber. No wires I can see, although they are so small I could easily miss them.

It's a shame. The tapered stylus and needle seem to be in good condition, although I don't have magnification to confirm the diamond.

I just picked up a 237-DEM with a blank cantilever (no diamond, flat cantilever tip) and will probably pull the grommet of it out to compare too.

 

[KSM74]

The suspensions in the 239-PDEs I have are both colored green, while others I've looked at are black.

Oddly, both of my 239-PDEs have black blocks.

 

[kels83]

Oddly, both of my 239-PDEs have black blocks.

Ah, nice! Thank you for sharing this info. Sample of 4! How are the suspensions holding up on those bad boys?