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Are Class D Amps scaring the hell out of the BIG Boys ?

Good discussion, enjoyed reading the posts so far, and look forward to following it.

As I mentioned in my recent intro post (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=508202) I'm considering a hybrid integrated amp with a class D amp for the output stage. Been a while since I've followed amp trends, but last time I was paying attention, it seemed that class D was the cheap way out if you will.

Now that some of the big players are embracing class D I hope that means the technology is coming into its own and is gaining some respect. That can only lead to more consumer choice and serve to make a better product.

I'm seriously looking at the Rogue Sphinx. I've not auditioned it yet, but as a reviewer wrote in a recent Stereophile, forget all the specs. It's the sound that matters. I realize that statement may cause some audiophiles to recoil in horror, but I will echo the sentiment that cubdog proffered upthread: I don't give a chit what anyone says, my ears are all that matters.

All that said, does anyone here own a Sphinx? I've not seen any in-depth reviews yet -- only CES reports -- so I'd be anxious to hear what people think of this rig.
 
Pioneer has a 2-channel Class-d integrated out in the UK that I was just reading about in one of the British magazines, that looks interesting. Not sure if its out here? Article said it was "voiced" for the UK market. But all amps sound the same so...
 
It seems to me that for the moment at least the time when Class D amps shine brightest is either when one needs lots of w/ch and has less resources to work with or when space and weight are at a premium. I suspect that as the technology gets increasingly sophisticated we will see it being applied much more often and in more ways.
 
JohnVF said:
Pioneer has a 2-channel Class-d integrated out in the UK that I was just reading about in one of the British magazines, that looks interesting. Not sure if its out here? Article said it was "voiced" for the UK market. But all amps sound the same so...
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"Voiced" for the UK? All amps sound the same, hmmm seem to recall a thread about that somewhere around here. You think a UK voicing would be darker than one for N America and Asia?
 
fiddlefye said:
"Voiced" for the UK? All amps sound the same, hmmm seem to recall a thread about that somewhere around here. You think a UK voicing would be darker than one for N America and Asia?
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Article said it would be "warmer", maybe a bit more laid back than the Japanese equivalent. Who knows? It was tweaked with the help of AIR studios, who did the same thing for my SC-27 and I liked the sound and would say it was pretty neutral but leaning towards the warm end of things. Which I happen to like.

Looks nice. Retro, etc.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/98/405/A-50-S/page.html

The SC-27 was really nice with the right speakers. It didn't sound good at all with my Quads, though I wasn't expecting it to given the odd load they present. It also sounded rather bland with my Harbeth Compact 7s, but really shone with the Sony SS-m7s and an older pair of Diatones that I had.
 
I just picked up a set of Martin Logan Motion 12 speakers and found out that my Denon 2112ci AVR is not 4 Ohm stable. They sound great with the Denon but the protection circuits kick in just as the volume is getting 'right'. So I've been looking at picking up a new AVR.

I was set on the Pioneer SC61 w/ 7 125w Class D channels. Has anyone had experience with these amps? Pros/Cons? It is one of the few sub $2000 amps I can find that is 4 ohm stable on all 7 channels.
 
JohnVF said:
My only experience was with a Pioneer SC-27 using a variation of the B&O ICEpower. It was either very good or mediocre depending on what speakers I was using. But it was really quite promising. I would be surprised if more and more companies went this route
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At one point, several years ago, all of the mainstream brands had at least one Class D-powered HT receivers on the market. Everyone from Sony ES to Sherwood, but I believe the most famous of all were the Panasonic XR-series. Very few of the mainstream brands went into separates with Class D.

Yamaha, however, did release in the US (of course, in black only) the $5000, 500 watts/channel (but only 23 lbs in weight) MX-D1 power amp. Even the pro-analog Michael Fremer of Stereophile gave it a "thumbs up" in his review.
 
I had been using Pioneers Elite SC-57 with their Class D3 they called it and it sounded great (to me). In my listening space (read: living room) i was incredibly pleased. I switched back and forth to my other AVR and the SC-57 sounded a tad better to me. It might be due to being a little more powerful, who knows. My ears only know what was happening in that space at that point in time :0)

It will be interesting to see what the next "chapter" in amplifiers turns out to be.
 
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rcspkramp said:
Pioneer's high end division, TAD also uses class D topology in their expensive power amps.
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The last Mark Levinson* amp was Class D.

* the company, not the man - who sells the rights to their own name ? Not sure that it was MLs brightest move, no matter how many millions he got. I think he still turns out the odd amp under Red Rose or somesuch - anyone ?
 
davidro said:
Are we talking about SDS-440CS?

http://classdaudio.com/audio-amplifiers/sds-440cs.html
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Yes we are, but its clear from the rear photo in that link that the designer dumped the Gain switches on the back. Back on page 2 of this thread, I posted a photo of one of the earlier amps with the gain switches in place, and mentioned that the designer seemed eager to point out that the amp was still a 'work in progress' - clearly, he realised that a power amp with gain control wasn't quite what his customers wanted - c'est la vie.
 
I love trying out different gear and owned lots of amps in the past, including Parasound (John Curl Halo line), Bryston, Audio Research (tube & SS), Theta, McIntosh, etc. I recently picked up a Spectron Musician II amp with the hybrid plus upgrade from the factory. It's my first Class D amp.

I purchased the Spectron because Anthony Gallo uses Spectron amps to demo their speakers at shows (and I have Gallo speakers). These speakers are extremely inefficient and need lots of power. All I can say is WOW! The Spectron is truly one of the best amplifiers I have ever owned. Theta was my favorite until I tried the Spectron.

The Spectron multi-channel amps are way out of my budget ($15K+), so I'll stick to my Bryston 5B-ST to power the center and rear speakers. The Spectron is powering my front two for stereo listening.

I'm highly impressed and do think Class D will be making major head winds in the near future.
 
I suspect that the M2 may have challenged some entrenched views on the viability of Class D - John's endorsement is echoed by reviewers who seem to have started with a less-than-enthusiastic attitude and become converts by the end of the review. Whatever your personal opinion of magazine reviews, it mirrors what John said earlier in this thread, and I'm reasonably confident that NAD hasn't paid him for his opinion. I have absolutely no idea how the M2 stands up to a conventional DAC/amp combination, but I'm not going to draw a line through it simply because it costs more than a basic separates system from Wyred4Sound. I want *both*, side-by-side :yes:

(Apologies to those who have already read the reviews I've copied and pasted from, but for me it highlights just how many of us need to hear the newer Class-D (esp the all-digital variants) offerings before posting comments like the earlier 'Nah, they're all ****' effort. Eloquence like that needs a little balance IMO)

John Atkinson:
I was torn between respect for the technology its design demonstrated and skepticism about its ultimate sound quality.
......
Once I had changed my system approach, the NAD M2 provided many nights of extended listening, with one album leading to just one more. And one more. While the M2 is relatively large and heavy for a class-D amplifier, runs warmer than you might expect, and is not inexpensive, when fed high-quality PCM data it offers sound quality that competes with that of the best conventional amplifiers. Given my long-term skepticism about the sonic benefits of PWM amplifiers, that was not what I was expecting. NAD's Masters Series M2 is a winner all the way.
.........
It is very satisfying to be able to discuss a component's measured performance without having to scratch my head over some or another idiosyncrasy. The NAD Masters Series M2 Direct Digital amplifier falls readily into that category

----------------------------------------------------
Robert Harley (TAS)
Long-time readers will know that I’m no fan of switching amplifiers. They have their virtues—small size, very little heat dissipation, light weight, and usually a considerable amount of output power for the money. But when the music starts, Class D amplifiers have left me cold. They can sound very dynamic, but exhibit considerable variability in sound quality depending on the loudspeaker they are driving, the cables, and other factors. The switching amplifiers I’ve heard (admittedly, I have not heard many) have exhibited a mechanical character, along with a “chalky” coloration in the midrange that robs instruments of their distinctive tone colors.
.........
Despite costing one-tenth as much as my reference system (all the components of which are outstanding), the M2 was extremely engaging musically. Overall, I preferred the reference system, but not by as much as the price disparity would suggest. I usually wouldn’t judge a $6000 product against one costing more than $50k, but the M2’s outstanding performance in many areas invited the comparison. Moreover, the M2 represents a radically different approach to amplifier design, digital-to-analog conversion, and system architecture. As such, I evaluated how the M2 sounds not just in comparison with similarly priced conventional amplification and digital-to-analog conversion, but how its new technology stacks up on an absolute basis. (You should consider this when reading how the M2 falls short of a reference-quality system. I included those observations not to diminish the great achievement the M2 represents, but to put this new technology in context.)

As for the M2 as an alternative to a $3500 conventional integrated amplifier and a $2500 digital-to-analog converter, it’s a slam dunk. I haven’t heard, nor can I imagine, any combination of amplification and DAC at the price approaching the M2’s performance. Moreover, the M2 delivers, in one chassis, decoding of high-resolution digital audio, the source-switching and control functions of a preamplifier, and 250W of amplification—all with outstanding ergonomics. I can envision the M2, or its descendents, as part of a three-piece playback-system: music server, M2-like product, and loudspeakers.

NAD's M2 is a triumph on many levels, not the least of which is that it points toward a new direction in amplifier design and system architecture. I predict that years from now audiophiles will look back on the M2 as the progenitor of the next generation of audio.
 
Frank Sol said:
Not true... There are different models

The stereo only amps have gain controls

The stereo/mono amps do not
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Again - my mistake, and I apologize, but it was clear that davidro and I were talking about a different rear panel - hopefully, anyone wanting the amp with the gain switches knows which designation they need to order.
 
HamDog said:
These speakers are extremely inefficient and need lots of power. All I can say is WOW!
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That's been my observation also and I mentioned earlier in this thread that my class D amp 'sounds' better mated with harder to drive speakers
 
I really enjoy my little Dayton and SMSL amps. They both power systems I listen the most, but I am not ready to spend big money on one yet, maybe if I was able to hear one. but the little/cheap ones do everything I need an amp to do. I also like the fact they are so small. there is no where close to me where I can sample a bigger/more powerful/more expensive one, and while I am willing to spend less than $100 on something I cant hear as the price increases so does my unwillingness to buy unseen/heard. but I keep looking at class D with enthusiasm!
 
Isotonic said:
This is a little off topic but related. A couple of years ago I decided to get back to playing electric bass. There are a lot of new bass amps out there. Most of them are class D. I tried a lot of them and there was something not right about all of them. I found a used GenzBenz with a big fat transformer and the rightness came right back. There was a weight and punch that the Class D amps did not possess, regardless of watts.

The GenzBenz was not cheap and it weighs a ton, but I have a pretty dynamic style. I could not live with the anemic tone in the class D amps.
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The GenzBenz is sweet stuff alright. That's on my bucket list. I'll have to put up with my Crate in the meantime.

QEMaster
 
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