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AT-PL120 owners w/ AT-440mla cart >>>

oops, i do actually have a shure sfg-2 stylus gauge handy when i'm trying to get an accurate vtf reading. picked one up on amazon earlier in the summer. the only thing i haven't really jumped into is the actual cleaning (wet) of the records, which kind of intimidates me. there's entirely waaaaay too many methods out there. i'm weary of storing records in racks to dry and things like that. i do like the simplicity the vpi offers, quite frankly. but yeah, it's dollars.

DC: absolutely, i completely agree with ya on the reading aspect. i really do enjoy that side of it, which makes the hobby that much more enjoyable. i've been pretty voracious in the reading/research department over the past couple of months and knew it would just be more practical if i joined this site.

thanks again for the replies.
 
hey flattedsixth

I have the same exact cartridge and TT setup as you do. I think the 44mla sounds great on the PL120. What are you tracking at? I've got mine dialed in right about 1.6 grams. One major difference is my just of slip mat. I use the "Anti-Static Turntable Mat with Strobe Pattern" from this site, http://www.sleevetown.com/turntable-accessories.shtml. The mat is thin but I have just always preferred the sound I get from it compared to the thick rubber mat i have.

Anyway, more specifically I am using the PL120 and the 440mla cartridge with...
Cambridge 640P pre amp
Marantz 2215B Receiver
Polk Audio Monitor 30 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers
AudioQuest Carbon Fiber Brush
Shure Tracking Stylus Guide

Great to hear that someone else is enjoying their AT-PL120 as mush as I am!
 
Flattedsixth you got your feet wet with the AT PL-120 turntable/AT 440 cartridge and found it has its limitations. You have done your homework and the Technics SL-1200/Denon DL-160 are excellent choices. Stick with the proven performers and avoid the cheap, less effective and convenient equipment/methods. You will be wasteing your money with the Spin Clean and soon realize its not the most effective or convenient way to clean records. The VPI 16.5 is a much better choice and like the Technics/Denon is a good investment that will serve you well for many years to come.
 
bbb777 said:
hey flattedsixth

I have the same exact cartridge and TT setup as you do. I think the 44mla sounds great on the PL120. What are you tracking at? I've got mine dialed in right about 1.6 grams. One major difference is my just of slip mat. I use the "Anti-Static Turntable Mat with Strobe Pattern" from this site, http://www.sleevetown.com/turntable-accessories.shtml. The mat is thin but I have just always preferred the sound I get from it compared to the thick rubber mat i have.
Click to expand...

i think i'm tracking around 1.5g right now. anti-skate is set to a hair over 1. any general rule of thumb suggestions re: the anti-skate setting, btw? my impression is up to a particular "sweet spot" that it evolves to be an ear training exercise vs. dialing in standard setting(s), if you may.

anyways, thanks for the mat suggestion, bbb. i'll bookmark that page as well. i remember a couple people suggesting the 1/4" mat off of kab to somewhat remedy the ever so slight residual down slope of the tonearm, considering the tonearm height is at its lowest setting possible. someone earlier mentioned the shim will also help for this too. i think i'm at a point where i'm comfortable with my accessories and settings.

i don't have a large collection as i'm playing my records through and sifting for candidates that need to be cleaned, which turn out to be mostly used ones i bought in the past before i started caring about, ya know, the actually quality of the album.
 
majick47 said:
Flattedsixth you got your feet wet with the AT PL-120 turntable/AT 440 cartridge and found it has its limitations. You have done your homework and the Technics SL-1200/Denon DL-160 are excellent choices. Stick with the proven performers and avoid the cheap, less effective and convenient equipment/methods. You will be wasteing your money with the Spin Clean and soon realize its not the most effective or convenient way to clean records. The VPI 16.5 is a much better choice and like the Technics/Denon is a good investment that will serve you well for many years to come.
Click to expand...

my friend who's into this kind of thing always says how it's "one long learning experience". i definitely wanna learn as much about it as i can, cause i'm definitely into it, to say the least. able music listening experience. :music:it's a very rewarding one for me as i'm constantly in search of that elusive yet impeccable listening experience.

also bought a pair of sennheiser hd-555 off buydig for $85 with zero shipping on a six day delivery. very solid deal considering the price point, too.
 
another question...

dialing in anti-skate increases centrifugal force, correct? so if there's too much anti-skate applied it creates distortion in which channel? (right or left) i think i read that too much anti-skate can create distortion in the right and too little or no anti can cause distortion in the left. any confirmation on this would be appreciated.
 
If you are going to use alcohol to clean electrical connections it is better to use 91% or better as there is usually less stuff in the 91% that can actually contaminate the connections than is commonly found in normal 70% rubbing alcohol...anhydrous is the best, 99% second best....

The VPI 16.5 is the most worthwhile analog accessory that you could ever buy,I've had mine for over a decade and would much rather have to get rid of my Linn and use one of my other, lesser turntables than to be without the 16.5...I've tested all kinds of fluids, methods, cleaning machines and processes and there is no way, no how, that anything less than vacuum cleaning works as well...even the budget conscious Spin Clean's efforts is improved by re-cleaning the LP's with a proper commercial solution and rinse on any of the vacuum machines...the VPI's platter to support and turn the LP while you apply fluids or vacuum is a much, much better option than the floppy nature of the Nitty Gritty based machines and makes cleaning much quicker and much easier..I have used the NG's extensively and demonstrated them at shows, etc., and made my choice after hours of hands on experience with both styles...I use a rubber mat from a BPC turntable on top of the VPI's cork mat and have a microfiber towel handy that I use to dust off the rubber mat between sides eliminating contamination between cleaned and not...

I've made many audio decisions in the past 40+ years that I have been playing with audio gear that have left me second guessing those decisions, but the 16.5 is something that I have never, ever had a second thought about...it makes buying 99 cent bargain records less of a crapshoot and there's much less of a chance of getting some kind of schmutz on an expensive, or non-user replaceable, stylus, and that alone is worth it to me...it's quick, I can take an LP, clean it and put it directly on the turntable without having to wait for it to dry, so everything gets a quick clean, even if it's been cleaned properly before, and there are just no questions about whether or not something is ready to play...after a dusting off with a carbon fiber brush immediately before play, of course!

.
 
nice post, rick. thanks a lot. what kind of microfiber cloth do you recommend? very good points on wiping the mat between sides when cleaning with the vpi and having piece of mind re: the shcmutz. the former being one of the many reasons i wanna splurge on the 16.5 sooner than later.

i will proceed with 91% rubbing alcohol as well when cleaning the connections at the end of the tone arm and beginning of the head shell. great post, too. thanks.
 
The microfiber cloth isn't really critical, but kind of like a terry cloth towel, it's just a tool to dust off the mat...
 
RickB said:
The microfiber cloth isn't really critical, but kind of like a terry cloth towel, it's just a tool to dust off the mat...
Click to expand...

excellent. i'll probably order some this week.

appreciate all the pointers/replies from everyone. much obliged. :rockon:
 
RickB said:
I just picked up a couple of bundles of the microfiber towels in the automotive department of WalMart...
Click to expand...

nice grab, i have a bunch of errands to run tomorrow, so maybe i'll pick some up while i'm out and about. thanks again for the replies.
 
flattedsixth said:
oops, i do actually have a shure sfg-2 stylus gauge handy when i'm trying to get an accurate vtf reading. picked one up on amazon earlier in the summer.
Click to expand...

The Shure gauge works very well. Yer all set!

majick47 said:
You will be wasteing your money with the Spin Clean and soon realize its not the most effective or convenient way to clean records.
Click to expand...

A Spin-Clean is definitely NOT a waste of money! It is HIGHLY effective, and I don't find it at all inconvenient to use. It may or may not be as 'good' as a VPI, but it costs less than 20% of the price of the VPI, and does a dang good job. I like it so much, in fact, that I am currently in the long-term process of systematically re-cleaning my entire collection with it - several thousand discs! To say that it has transformed the quality of my collection is not an understatement.

If I had a lot of extra bread I'd probably buy a VPI too, but with my budget I'd rather spend the money on more records.

I'd suggest that flattedsixth search some of the past threads about the Spin-Clean for more opinions.
 
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flattedsixth said:
also rick, what kind of cleaning solution do you use on your records when using the vpi?
Click to expand...

My favorite is the Audio Intelligent Vinyl Systems solutions, their three step process is incredible, but have used the MoFi, which used to be Record Research Labs, solutions and The Disc Doctor's Miracle Record Cleaner, along with the VPI and LAST record cleaning machine fluids...I've even made home brew solutions that have worked quite well, too...the big "secret" is to get enough fluid on the surface to float the detritus into suspension, "agitate" the solution with the brush...the brush's fibers may go down into the grooves but it's more the action of the solution loosening the contaminants from the record's surface that does the actual work...and then the vacuuming of that solution from the surface is what really accomplishes the cleaning....

I use the AIVS/Osage Audio brush, the VPI brush, the MoFI brushes, and the Disc Doctor's brushes all to great effect....favorites are the Osage and the MoFi's....

The most important thing is to always use as pure a water final rinse as possible after any cleaner...that and on really dirty records allow the cleaning solution time to sit on the surface and do it's work...it may take a little bit of time to actually loosen and remove some of the stuff that has found its way to the record's surface as there is no telling what kind of hygiene used records have been subjected to in the past....

It's also a good idea to wash brand new records and to put them into new anti-static sleeves...I can't tell you the number of brand new, sealed, current production records who's sound and noise qualities have improved immensely by doing that...it made such a difference that I will no longer play a brand new LP without washing it first....

Vinyl is a journey, and for over forty years it has been my favorite audio related road to travel...remember, this is a hobby, a hobby is something that occupies your time and makes that time more pleasant, so we don't really need to rush into things.

Yet, as I have found time after time after time, buy the very best that you can in the beginning as you will actually save money in the long run...the best will also last longer, give you more service, and perhaps help decrease your frustration levels, which can then lead to a reduction in pleasure that we receive from out hobbies...it also eliminates second guessing yourself and perhaps increasing the work load...

The Spin Clean may very well be a worthy audio accessory, but if you have your eyes set on the VPI then that's what you should go for, why clean your records with one method only to have to do it all over again with another, unless you want to, that is...

For instance, I used to use the Disc Doctor's Miracle record solution and his brushes without the VPI...I bought this system on the recommendations of Bruce Kinch, who used to put out a newsletter for vinyl aficionados called "The Primyl Vinyl Exchange" (Remember the days before the Internet was so pervasive? There were tons of newsletters and classifieds for every hobby that are now all gone)...I followed Doctor Duane's instructions to the letter...it was a WORLD of difference better than the Discwasher piece-O-krap and really made my collection sound much better...yet, each and every one of the LP's I cleaned with the Disc Doctor's method improved several years later when I got my VPI and transferred his method to it...this led to my assertion that vacuuming the fluids off is the best way to go when properly cleaning records.

I have bought many, many used records at Half Price Books, 99% of them from the bargain bin...many times I will just go into my LP's and select one that I haven't played before, two or three minutes later the LP is pristine and clean and playing on my Sondek...there is no other way that I know of that allows me to do that as with any other system you must take drying time into account...I'm way too impulsive for that!

As always, these are just my opinions and are subject to change or modification should new information or a smack upside my head change my mind...

Good luck and have fun!

.
 
RickB said:
For instance, I used to use the Disc Doctor's Miracle record solution and his brushes without the VPI...I bought this system on the recommendations of Bruce Kinch, who used to put out a newsletter for vinyl aficionados called "The Primyl Vinyl Exchange" (Remember the days before the Internet was so pervasive? There were tons of newsletters and classifieds for every hobby that are now all gone)...I followed Doctor Duane's instructions to the letter...it was a WORLD of difference better than the Discwasher piece-O-krap and really made my collection sound much better...yet, each and every one of the LP's I cleaned with the Disc Doctor's method improved several years later when I got my VPI and transferred his method to it...this led to my assertion that vacuuming the fluids off is the best way to go when properly cleaning records.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Mr. RickB. I too cleaned many albums with a wash and rinse by way of rags, brushes, sponges, wiping, etc. There was an improvement for sure, especially most (all?) of my albums were old, used, or otherwise neglected. I then moved to a commercial fluid with fancy brushes and a real rinse cycle (actual flowing water) and I was impressed with the greater improvement, especially on records already cleaned with the first method. Finally, I built a DIY version of a vacuum RCM (very simple and cheap, but effective) and was most impressed with that method. I came to the same conclusion that vacuuming the schmootz out of the grooves was the most effective way to get the grooves as clean as possible. Additionally, the fact that this method produces dry, ready-to-play records in a short period of time is an added bonus.

RickB said:
The Spin Clean may very well be a worthy audio accessory, but if you have your eyes set on the VPI then that's what you should go for, why clean your records with one method only to have to do it all over again with another, unless you want to, that is...
Click to expand...

I have not used a Spin Clean, but there is plenty of info here on AK. I have considered actually getting one just to see what all the fuss is about!

Good Luck
 
I run an AT PL120 as my main deck for used vinyl preview, 78 spinning, etc. I have others that are better, but this is so easy to setup and beat on, why fiddle with the others. I also swap cartridges a LOT and this thing just keeps ticking :)

Re the VTA and the arm. You have to move an arm base by 4mm to make a 1 degree change in the VTA. If you look at the stylus when running, you can change the Rake Angle more (which is what this is all about, really) by changing the Tracking Force. Lighter will give straighter standing stylus, more VTF will flatten the stylus angle.

I agree that on this table, you need to add mat thickness to get into the usable tone arm base adjustment range. I slip a cork disk (honemade) under the AT felt (flipped over, no logo up) and it works quite well. Then I set most cartridges to their heavy force limit to start with and back down to the sweet spot in 0.2 gram increments. As I recall, the 440MLa (which I have) likes 1.4 grams on mine. Yours may vary a bit. However, I have found that on some LPs I need to dial up the VTF to get the sound I want. It's a variable easily controlled, so why not? All LPs are not made the same.

Since my counterweight runs about 0.1 grams high (using a digital scale for reference), I dial in 1.3 from zero. Yours may be different? Please check. The 440MLa also definitely likes the lightest headshell I can find for it. Mine is in a 6.7 grams stamped aluminum shell with SOAR wires.

There is plenty of room to adjust this table to get the best sound possible with this combo. But, I have found the 440/MLa is about the upper limit for this table. Buying more expensive cartridge does not seem to yield much in the way of gain in sonics value. The better cartridges now reside on the JVC QL Y5F :)

One cartridge that shines on this table is the Nagaoka JT-555. The Nagaoka 185e also sounds excellent. The little AT95e is really nice on this table as well, and so is the Grado Black (with slight hum at rest due to quartz LED directly below arm). I also have an Ortofon OM/Digitrac 200NE that works well on this table, and the venerable Shure M97Xe and M75HE, but to make those shine you need to change the cartridge resistive loading. The M75 is the easier of the two run straight up. Bottom line, this table works fine with cartridges in this price range :) As a matter of fact (in my world) the AT-PL120 is a great work horse for budget cartridges. They seem to be married well. Maybe the AT engineers had this in mind, whatever, this is the table to beat on used vinyl with :)
 
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wow. lot of great information in here. it's gonna take me some time to reply to the last three posts.

couple of questions off the top of my head for broc re: the head shell as i am VERY interested in possibly making the change to accommodate the 440mla. thanks.

1. how much does the at-pl120 head shell (including wires) actually weigh?
2. where is a place where i can find the stamped aluminum head shell, not to mention the SOAR wires you suggested as well?

i've actually checked my counterweight variance and it's understated by about .2 grams, wo my vtf is currently set to 1.3.

i absolutely AGREE that this is the most anyone should spend on a cart for this specific table. i was pretty weary even spending that much for a cart on a table that costs 50 bucks more than the actual cart, but i'm very happy with this set-up at the time and the lighter head shell might be the ::gasps:: final tweak for this unit. :)
 
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