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AT-VM95ML shaking, jumping out of grooves

Classic_CJ said:
The suggestion by triode to check for any interference with the tonearm bearings is is good one, I'd start there, but there's also the possibility that this later version of the AT-LP120 'table shares an issue with every earlier sample I ever setup for customers, and including the one I own myself-- which is that the anti-skate dial is grossly mis-calibrated, and applies way too little anti-skate for a given tracking pressure setting. For example, setting my machine for any cartridge tracking at 2 grams or less, I need to set the anti-skate at or near its maximum setting! (I test with test records and a scope to look for equal mistracking on both channels as modulation levels on the test record increase.

This degree of error could easily cause tracking issues, especially on a high compliance cartridge like most of the Audio-Technicas. For grins, after you've verified the arm bearings being OK, try setting the A/S the whole way up, and see what, if any, difference this makes with your issue.
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The AT-LP120X has the anti skating problem fixed, so it should be powerful enough.

I've tried messing with it earlier, but unfortunately, it didn't help with the tracking.
 
Mr Boochie said:
Consistent inner groove distortion suggests basic cartridge alignment and anti-skating adjustment issues. :idea: You really need to get precise with the two-point Baerwald or Stevenson protractors. Something must be off, especially with the inner point position.

You may want to look for a good, used test record. It may help narrow down anti-skating settings needed for the best tracking with your turntable and cartridge. :)

Posting close-up photos of your alignment points, may help. :thumbsup:

View attachment 2562710
Inner alignment point.

View attachment 2562712
Outer alignment point.
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You misunderstood what I've said about IGD. The AT-VM95E (my old cart) had horrible inner groove distortion (at least for my taste), even when aligned properly. My new cart sounds awesome at the inner grooves (when it can play the record without jumping :D).

The stylus is currently installed on my factory cartridge body, so I didn't do any alignment (it wasn't any better when I tried to do it myself on the other headshell).

I already played with the anti skating, and I found the sound to be the best just a little bit above 2, but unfortunately, that didn't help with the wiggling.

I'll try to post some pictures about the alignment tomorrow, thanks for the heads up!
 
patient_ot said:
The cartridge OP is using has a Western compliance around ~13 CU. Not high compliance. Compliance, alignment, and VTA are all red herrings in this case and are not going to solve OP's problem.

Let's see a picture of how OP has the turntable set up, how well isolated it is, how far the speakers are from the turntable, etc. What kind of flooring does OP have? These are all questions that need to be answered, preferably with detailed pictures.

OP, is it possible to try your new cartridge on a friend's turntable or a turntable at a stereo shop? If it causes the same problem on a known good turntable then we can start thinking about whether the cartridge might be defective.
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The speakers are approximately 1 - 1,5 meters (around 3.3 - 4.9 feet) from the TT. But it's wiggling even when the volume is all the way down, so that shouldn't be the problem. What could be a problem, is that the turntable is currently on top of my receiver. I heard the transformer could cause vibrations, and that could cause things like this, but my old cartridge was (and it still is) working perfectly fine this way. I have laminated wood flooring, and the whole system is on a strong glass wooden table.

Sadly, none of my friends are in to the hobby, and I live in a place where there isn't any stores like this (at least to my knowledge), and this is my first turntable.
 
spark1 said:
My first thought was the obvious; that OP is getting feedback into the TT. I would be curious to know what the TT is sitting on, how his speakers are positioned relative to the table, what speakers he is using, is the bass control boosted, and is he running a subwoofer.

Hard to imagine how VTA or skating force could cause the problems he is having. Feedback or bad bearings...those are my guesses.

EDIT - Or bad stylus assembly/suspension. In fact, this may be most likely given that he did not have this problem with the initial cartridge (a fact which I overlooked earlier). It was good advice to try it on another table, if possible.
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The turntable is currently on top of my receiver (which I heard can cause vibrations, but sadly I don't have another place where I could reach it easily). The speakers are KEF 104/2s, and they are quite far from the TT (as I mentioned in previous posts). I don't use any equalizer adjustment, everything's set to flat, and I don't have a sub.

All of this is still happening with the volume all the way down, so that shouldn't be a problem.

What I didn't try yet, and I definitely will, is to turn off the receiver, when a record is playing. If it stops, it should be the transformer vibrating the TT. (this wasn't a problem with the old cartridge)
 
Carbon653 said:
What I didn't try yet, and I definitely will, is to turn off the receiver, when a record is playing. If it stops, it should be the transformer vibrating the TT. (this wasn't a problem with the old cartridge)
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Try that and see what happens. Can you lift the turntable off the receiver and put it on the floor. Then see if the arm still jumps around, while playing a record.

Be sure the record is a flat one. No warpage. :)
 
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BillWojo said:
This guy has been posting about this issue on other sites. On the SH forum he said that he purchased the cart/headshell combination specifically so he wouldn't have to align it. Doesn't want to be bothered. He refuses to check it and skirts around questions concerning that.
Until a verified alignment has been done, by a qualified person I'd just ignore this thread. It's frustrating to deal with a person that flat out refuses to take good advice from so many forum members.

BillWojo
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I didn't post about this anywhere else, I'm not even registered on SH! Please reread my post here, I didn't buy anything because of it being pre aligned. I bought a HS10 headshell, and an AT-VM95ML cartridge that I can align, but I thought that I'm doing it wrong, because of it wiggling, and skipping. That's why I tried installing it on my factory aligned AT-VM95E cartridge body, because they should use the same alignment.

I'm really sorry about not checking the replies fast enough :(
I didn't think that I'd get this amount of help from this amount of people. I'm having examination period at the moment, so that's the main reason, why I was ignoring it for so long.

I'm surprised of this community, and even if it doesn't seem like it, I'm grateful for everyone trying to help me.
 
spark1 said:
If the OP ever returns, I think he can use the simpler, altho less exacting, method of measuring from the "back" of the rubber gasket at the part of the headshell which inserts into the tonearm, to the stylus tip. It should be 52 to 52.5mm. This will certainly get it close enough to rule out alignment as the cause.

I still lean towards feedback, or a faulty cartridge suspension. Egregiously light tracking force is another possibility, if the OP does not have a scale and does not understand the process of floating the tonearm and then calibrating the counterweight gauge to zero without turning the counterweight.
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I'll try to measure it tomorrow, thanks!

I was using 2.0 gram tracking force at the beginning, but I tried raising it to around 2.2 and nothing happened (yes, I am using a scale, and I understand the other method too, I was using my old cartridge with the tracking force aligned that way)
 
Mr Boochie said:
Try that and see what happens. Can you lift the turntable off the receiver and put it on the floor. Then see if the arm still jumps around, while playing a record.

Be sure the record is a flat one. No warpage. :)
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I think I can try it out on the floor, but it won't be leveled.

I only tried flat, non warped records with this cartridge yet. ;)
 
Carbon653 said:
I'll try to measure it tomorrow, thanks!

I was using 2.0 gram tracking force at the beginning, but I tried raising it to around 2.2 and nothing happened (yes, I am using a scale, and I understand the other method too, I was using my old cartridge with the tracking force aligned that way)
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Tracking force and alignment are two very different things. It is confusing to say that you aligned the tracking force.

The gasket to stylus measurement method is a way to do a simple alignment.
 
spark1 said:
Tracking force and alignment are two very different things. It is confusing to say that you aligned the tracking force.

The gasket to stylus measurement method is a way to do a simple alignment.
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Yeah, I know they are different, I just didn't know a better word to say it.

I was putting together replies for 2 hours now, and English isn't my native language after all
 
At this point, I would try to exchange the stylus. It sounds to me like you have compared the VM95E & VM95ML stylus on the same setup, same tracking force, same records, etc. If the only variable that introduces the problem is the new stylus, then.....
 
the only other thing that could be a remote possibility is that the ML has slightly higher compliance and perhaps with the new headshell it is pushing the mass out of acceptable resonance range and causing oscillation. Footfall can excite that resonance too if tt is not well isolated. A metal chassis of another unit is not a good base for a tt.
 
triode said:
wait I am confused didn't you say in your initial post that you had horrible igd with it ? and that is why you got the ML ? what do you mean flawlessly?
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Sorry to confuse you, by flawlessly, I meant that it was never wiggling, or shaking like this. It never skipped on any of my records, and it sounded just the way it should.

The AT-VM95E is a much cheaper elliptical, and I read in other posts that it's just bad in the inner grooves.

I have a whole album digitized (an old, hot US pressing of Pieces of Eight by STYX), and uploaded to google drive, that I made with the old cartridge.

If you'd like to give it a listen (if it's not considered as plagiarism :D), I can give you a link to get an idea of the "horrible" IGD I meantioned.
 
triode said:
the only other thing that could be a remote possibility is that the ML has slightly higher compliance and perhaps with the new headshell it is pushing the mass out of acceptable resonance range and causing oscillation. Footfall can excite that resonance too if tt is not well isolated. A metal chassis of another unit is not a good base for a tt.
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Yeah, many people mentioned the higher compliance being a problem, but many people recommend this setup, so I don't really know about that. Btw, it's doing it even with the old headshell (when the new stylus is installed on the old cartridge, that's what you're seeing in the vid I've posted).

Only the foot in the back are touching metal (but that's where the receiver's transformer is, so it could be it), the front side is wood.
 
I'd still like to see pics of OP's turntable set up situation and cartridge alignment. I'd also get the turntable away from the amp/receiver. Stacking equipment like that is generally a bad idea. Consider an inexpensive gear rack like the type from Pangea, Sanus, etc. so you can put each component on its own shelf with the TT on the top one.


Here are two simple tonearm tests you can perform. These are basic tests and not the same thing as taking the arm apart to inspect the bearings, but they will let you know if the tonearm bearings are severely worn, need adjusting, or tonearm wiring etc. is binding the tonearm.

Number one: put your stylus guard on or remove the stylus so you don't damage anything.


Zero balance the tonearm without any VTF so that is free floating. Turn anti-skate OFF.


Now gently tap the arm horizontally and vertically. You can use a Q-tip for this with a very light touch. It should move in both planes with little to no resistance. If it has significant resistance, there is a problem. See above.


Another test is to take a stethoscope and put it on the pivot/gimbal bearing of the tonearm while a record is playing. Turn the volume all the way down on speakers. Probably want to use a junk record and junk cart for this, just so you don't damage anything you care about. Now listen. If you hear the bearings chattering like mad, something is wrong. See above.
 
Carbon653 said:
Sorry to confuse you, by flawlessly, I meant that it was never wiggling, or shaking like this. It never skipped on any of my records, and it sounded just the way it should.

The AT-VM95E is a much cheaper elliptical, and I read in other posts that it's just bad in the inner grooves.

I have a whole album digitized (an old, hot US pressing of Pieces of Eight by STYX), and uploaded to google drive, that I made with the old cartridge.

If you'd like to give it a listen (if it's not considered as plagiarism :D), I can give you a link to get an idea of the "horrible" IGD I meantioned.
Click to expand...
I would say at this point it would be good to get some sights and sounds instead of shooting in the dark. Don't wait to ask to post pics and such. Just post them.
 
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