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Audio Technica AT7V, Signet?

I have a TK-7LCa. Sounds fantastic on my Black Widow. It's stylus is a line contact diamond, is high dynamic compliance (30X10^-6 cm/dyne I believe), and has a beryllium cantilever. Its impedance is listed at 580ohms.

According to the owners manual on VE, the AT-7V has an elliptical stylus with an aluminum cantilever and low dynamic compliance of 7X10^-6 cm/dyne. Its impedance is listed at 650 ohms.

Dave
 
Dave: You wouldn't happen to have the manual for the TK5Ea, TK7Ea and TK7LCa, would you? Then a pic of the spec table for these three would be very welcome...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
jackmowbray said:
(...) would AT use OCC wiring in a bottom of the line cart? (...)
Click to expand...

Not really in their absolute low-cost models (or at least not yet), but otherwise they already had quite a few models with PC-OCC in the entry-level range, like for example the AT410E/OCC and AT420E/OCC as well as the AT422EP/OCC and AT432EP/OCC - and today they have the AT100E and AT120E/II.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
About specs. Here's the table from the other thread:

Cartridge/Inductance/DC Resistance
Signet TK5Ea/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK3E/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK5E/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK7E/450 mH/500 Ohm
Signet TK7SU/450 mH/500 Ohm
Signet TK1Ea/490 mH/780 Ohm
Signet TK3Ea/490 mH/780 Ohm
Audio Technica AT7V/500 mH/650 Ohm

There's a difference between resistance and impedance. For example, the 440ML is 490mH and impedance is 3.2K while resistance isn't listed on the sheet, but is something like 790 ohms. I'm not saying any of the above information is wrong, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about this.

About measuring inductance with a meter, Elliott Sound Products:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/cartridge-loading.html

"Using an inductance meter to measure the cartridge's inductance won't work! The DC resistance is high compared to the inductive reactance, so the meter will lie, and indicate that inductance is much higher than it really is. In addition, the test frequency is determined by the meter, and is unlikely to be appropriate for the task. Most meters don't even tell you what frequency is in use, so you don't get the opportunity to decide if it's appropriate or not (most will satisfy the 'not' criterion). A pickup I measured showed 1.55H (1550mH), which is silly - no cartridge will have that much inductance, however, the actual inductance calculated to be 1.15H, which is still silly and makes the cartridge pretty much unusable for anything other than very casual listening."

Even though 1000mH is more common than we're lead to believe, I think the point is valid. There seems to be a lot of misinformation about specs and this makes comparisons difficult. Even the factory spec sheets are sometimes mystifying. Check out a couple of pages of a discussion on AC. It eventually gets into the difference between resistance and impedance.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88878.280

Looking at the chart above, it looks right (to me) that those numbers are resistance. I often wonder about inductance specs taken with a meter.
neo
 
lini said:
Dave: You wouldn't happen to have the manual for the TK5Ea, TK7Ea and TK7LCa, would you? Then a pic of the spec table for these three would be very welcome...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...

Sorry, lini, but I don't. My TK-7LCa came mounted on a Thorens TD-166 MkII I bought on eBay. The guy didn't know what he had and only listed it as a Signet cartridge (no model). I nearly fell down when it arrived and I saw that it was a TK-7LCa! The stylus looks great under 60X magnification and the beryllium cantilever is straight and centered. I realize that 60X is not enough to see facet wear, but it sounds fantastic and passed all three tracking torture tests on the HiFi News test LP without any distortion.

Dave
 
neobop said:
About specs. Here's the table from the other thread:

Cartridge/Inductance/DC Resistance
Signet TK5Ea/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK3E/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK5E/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK7E/450 mH/500 Ohm
Signet TK7SU/450 mH/500 Ohm
Signet TK1Ea/490 mH/780 Ohm
Signet TK3Ea/490 mH/780 Ohm
Audio Technica AT7V/500 mH/650 Ohm
Click to expand...

Just to add a little data to the thread, I measured the two Signets that I have here. This is what I got:

TK1E
Ind. 962 mH L, 1036 mH R
Res. 1,212 ohms L, 1196 ohms R

TK3Ea
Ind. 602 mH L, 626 mH R
Res. 753 ohms L, 748 ohms R

My TK1E seems to be consistent with the lower echelon Signets in its series, both in terms of resistance and inductance. My Tk3Ea is also in the ballpark with regard to resistance but inductance seems a tad high.

John
 
Dave: So your 580 Ohm spec for the TK7LCa above is from VE, is it? Maybe I need to ask JaS or Ed, where they've got that from, then...

Gretings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
lini said:
Dave: So your 580 Ohm spec for the TK7LCa above is from VE, is it? Maybe I need to ask JaS or Ed, where they've got that from, then...

Gretings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...

Yep, lini, it's from VE. Do you have some reason to suspect that 580 ohms is incorrect?

Dave
 
I have several signets, which I have measured.

I believe that my meter measures inductance at 10kHz - results on various cartridges have been compared to the specs and found to be within manufacturing tolerance range of the OEM specs - so I think my measurements are relatively reliable....

TK4ep 682ohm / 522mH
TK6ep 794ohm / 566mH
TK7su 487ohm / 448mH
TK9e 228ohm / 88mH
TK9e 245ohm / 88mH
TK10 240ohm / 85mH

bye for now

David
 
neobop said:
About specs. Here's the table from the other thread:

Cartridge/Inductance/DC Resistance
Signet TK3E/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK5E/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK7E/450 mH/500 Ohm
Signet TK7SU/450 mH/500 Ohm
Signet TK1Ea/490 mH/780 Ohm
Signet TK3Ea/490 mH/780 Ohm
Signet TK5Ea/1000 mH/1200 Ohm
Signet TK7Ea/??? mH/580 Ohm
Signet TK7LCa/??? mH/580 Ohm
Audio Technica AT7V/500 mH/650 Ohm

There's a difference between resistance and impedance. For example, the 440ML is 490mH and impedance is 3.2K while resistance isn't listed on the sheet, but is something like 790 ohms. I'm not saying any of the above information is wrong, but there seems to be a lot of confusion about this.

About measuring inductance with a meter, Elliott Sound Products:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/cartridge-loading.html

"Using an inductance meter to measure the cartridge's inductance won't work! The DC resistance is high compared to the inductive reactance, so the meter will lie, and indicate that inductance is much higher than it really is. In addition, the test frequency is determined by the meter, and is unlikely to be appropriate for the task. Most meters don't even tell you what frequency is in use, so you don't get the opportunity to decide if it's appropriate or not (most will satisfy the 'not' criterion). A pickup I measured showed 1.55H (1550mH), which is silly - no cartridge will have that much inductance, however, the actual inductance calculated to be 1.15H, which is still silly and makes the cartridge pretty much unusable for anything other than very casual listening."

Even though 1000mH is more common than we're lead to believe, I think the point is valid. There seems to be a lot of misinformation about specs and this makes comparisons difficult. Even the factory spec sheets are sometimes mystifying. Check out a couple of pages of a discussion on AC. It eventually gets into the difference between resistance and impedance.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88878.280

Looking at the chart above, it looks right (to me) that those numbers are resistance. I often wonder about inductance specs taken with a meter.
neo
Click to expand...

Thanks Neo - the specs in the table are taken from manufacturer spec sheets (presuming the VE data comes from the manufacturer as well). Interesting to see the measured numbers.....

As this discussion develops, another question comes to mind: is there any correlation between the Signet TK7(x) series and the TK7(x)a series (see additional info in the table above)? If the generators are the same, then the only differences would be the body shape and stylus assembly construction, right? Does anyone know why the a-suffix series was developed? To improve upon the stylus mounting/resonances/etc?. If both 7 series carts do have the same generator, perhaps I can also get to where I want by mounting an ATN20ss stylus to a TK7E body (may even be better than the TK7LCa with the beryllium cantilever and Shibata stylus......)

Jack
 
Last edited:
Perhaps you should look at output as well. I think most of these are 5mV, but I'm not a Signet expert. If output is higher on one out of two models with the same electrical specs, they should have stronger magnets. The 440ML has same specs as the MLa, but output is 1.0mV higher.
What's the difference between a 3E and a 5E, and a 1Ea and 3Ea, the stylus or compliance?

When AT phased out the round plug design (early '80s?) I think they needed an additional suffix to distinguish those from the newer 100 series stylus fitment. Imagine the confusion when ordering a replacement stylus without distinguishing nomenclature. It makes it easier to retrofit a stylus and people have been substituting modern or different styli for a long time. This has been increasing lately with the revelation about Clearaudio MMs accepting AT styli and transplanting a stylus from one plug to another type, in this case 3400 series. The problem now is, supply. I read that virtually all the beryllium styli at Stereoneedles are now unavailable. That includes the 155LC, but I'm not sure about the 20SS. I think LpGear still has some - for a price.

The 20SS should be nice on a low inductance/resistance model. The models with higher values of these parameters will probably sound better with a more aggressive sounding stylus like an aluminum/LC or ML. Some of this is instinct and maybe David can comment on voicing, cantilever resonances etc. Perhaps this has to be evaluated on an individual basis. I tried an ATN152ML (beryllium/ML) on a 440. The 440 specs seem identical to a TK1Ea, 3Ea. It was nothing short of phenomenal. I was loading the cart at 32K and switched to 47K where it was hard to fault on any basis. Good luck finding an ATN152ML.
neo
 
If I understand the Cartridge Resonance Evaluator over at Vinyl Engine properly the AT-7V might be a poor match for a Pro-Ject 8.6c arm.

8.6C - 8.7g
AT-7V - 6.2g
Hardware - .5g
Dynamic compliance: 7.0 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Static compliance: 35 x 10-6 cm/dyne

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=8.7&submit=Submit

It's been mentioned the real dynamic compliance might actually be somewhere between it and the static landing at or around 18. If so the cartridge might work on the 8.6C arm. Has anyone heard of it working on a low mass Pro-Ject arm?
 
Hi,
I've never tried the arm but the AT cu of 7 @ 100Hz, should be equivalent to around 15.5 -16cu @ 10Hz. Fixing screw weight of .5g seems light. You could use stainless steel or brass screws to increase that. You could also add some weight to the headshell to increase eff mass. This might necessitate increasing the counterweight to balance it.

Those calculators are only an estimate, and real world examples can vary somewhat. I suspect the cart might sound better in a little heavier arm, but I can't say that from experience I've only used the stylus. I'm guessing, if you calculate cu of 16 and increase screws to 1.5g, you won't be far off.
neo
 
Thanks for the information. The reason I'm interested in the AT7V is I heard the sample files from the shootout at Analogue Planet. I played them back through my system with the levels matched and there was the Bronze putting me in the front row. Frankly I'm weary of that in your face presentation and much preferred the ATV7 smoothness and middle row sound. Would that be a reasonably accurate description of this cartridge?
 
BassLake said:
Thanks for the information. The reason I'm interested in the AT7V is I heard the sample files from the shootout at Analogue Planet. I played them back through my system with the levels matched and there was the Bronze putting me in the front row. Frankly I'm weary of that in your face presentation and much preferred the ATV7 smoothness and middle row sound. Would that be a reasonably accurate description of this cartridge?
Click to expand...

By all accounts both here and elsewhere, yes that would be reasonably accurate description. ATs generally have a long break-in. You might have to be patient. One thing that might be important is capacitance load. That's the capacitance of tonearm wire + cable + preamp input. ATs want to see a low value load, < 200pF. That's not always easy to achieve. If your pre has a switch for this, put it on the lowest value.

If you get it, let us know how you make out.
neo
 
The capacitance load was a concern as the Marantz PM8004 is rated at 220pf. This is probably the reason why I find the 2M Bronze so irritating. Strangely I decided to go in a completely different direction to skirt the capacitance issue and went with a Grado Gold1 with a 8MZ stylus upgrade.

Thanks for the help.
Eric
 
I snagged an AT7V cart with a broken stylus recently. Didn't care about the stylus since I realized the stylii from an AT140lc, 440mlb, and 155lc would fit nicely. After trying all 3, I've come to enjoy the ATN140lc stylus the best. The other 2 had that rising high end whereas the AT140lc sounded much more "balanced" throughout the audible spectrum. This pairing seems to play pop, rock, jazz, solos equally well. It doesn't wear me down.

Obviously this ensemble warrants more listening, but for the curious reader, a new AT7v costs ~ $159.00 USD. I get great results with my AT TKN2 and AT15XE stylii, which are 2 x 7 ellipticals just like the ATN7v, which leads me to believe this is one heck of a bargain in today's market.

just my $0.02
 
RonniB said:
I snagged an AT7V cart with a broken stylus recently. Didn't care about the stylus since I realized the stylii from an AT140lc, 440mlb, and 155lc would fit nicely. After trying all 3, I've come to enjoy the ATN140lc stylus the best. The other 2 had that rising high end whereas the AT140lc sounded much more "balanced" throughout the audible spectrum. This pairing seems to play pop, rock, jazz, solos equally well. It doesn't wear me down.

Obviously this ensemble warrants more listening, but for the curious reader, a new AT7v costs ~ $159.00 USD. I get great results with my AT TKN2 and AT15XE stylii, which are 2 x 7 ellipticals just like the ATN7v, which leads me to believe this is one heck of a bargain in today's market.

just my $0.02
Click to expand...


Hey Ronnie, I have a nice Signet TK7 cart, that cart that came with a worn out stylus.

I can't a replacement it easily easily and the numbers confuse me a bit.

What would you recommend as a replacement stylus?

Thanks!
 
0face1 said:
Hey Ronnie, I have a nice Signet TK7 cart, that cart that came with a worn out stylus.

I can't a replacement it easily easily and the numbers confuse me a bit.

What would you recommend as a replacement stylus?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Depends on what you want from the cartridge. lpgear.com has a nice 2 x 7 elliptical stylus: https://www.lpgear.com/product/TKN22.html
You can also install a stylus from the AT15 family; AT15XE, ATN15, or an aftermarket replacement. Here's a JICO Shibata stylus on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JICO-SHIBAT...576940?hash=item1a2d5332ec:g:ChYAAOSwBt5ZMiEC
*(Long delivery time)*
There are cheaper stylii which will also fit your cartridge, but you get what you pay for. That TK7 is too good to be "dissed" by a cheap stylus.
I've been looking for a TK7 cart at a reasonable price, but nobody is reasonable. I'll keep enjoying my TK5, I guess. :)

just my $0.02
 
I am seriously considering this cartridge for my Sony PS-X7, which has the "carbon fiber" tone arm. The Sony manual is absent specs on tonearm compliance and mass, so what do you think of this cartridge for my application? I am also considering cartridges in the <$160 range (Nagaoka MP-110, Ortofon 2M Red, and maybe stretch to the AT-440mlb). Listening is mostly Jazz, and Blues. TIA!
 
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