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Bass Response

samurai7595

samurai7595

Active Member
I'm looking for a pair of floorstanding speakers for my 12' x 14' living room.

When music features bass, I like to hear/feel it but I'm looking for realistic (non-boomy / non-exaggerated) bass.

I'm using a McIntosh MAC6700 stereo receiver which is rated at 200W for 2, 4 and 8 ohms.

A friend of mine pointed me to the Totem Tribe Tower speakers which use a pair of 4" drivers for the mids & bass and are rated at 30Hz.

A second friend of mine pointed me to the B&W 702 S2 speakers which use a 6" mid driver and 3 x 6.5" bass drivers and are only rated at 45Hz.

The Totem speakers are slimmer and use smaller drivers while the B&W speakers are larger (more internal volume) and use bigger drivers. So how is it possible that the Totem speakers are rated lower?

BTW, I read a reviews on both speakers and the reviews say that their bass ratings seem accurate to their rated value.

How is this possible?????
 
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Well, politely, most speakers companies fudge their specs......no truthfully, most lie outright.

The few companies that have tried to be truthfull with their dealers, sales people and end users get a lot of flak.

The room gain and speaker position, how the speakers interact with the room's accoustics play the biggest part in how speakers will produce bass.
 
samurai7595 said:
I'm looking for a pair of floorstanding speakers for my 12' x 14' living room.

When music features bass, I like to hear/feel it but I'm looking for realistic (non-boomy / non-exaggerated) bass.

I'm using a McIntosh MAC6700 stereo receiver which is rated at 200W for 2, 4 and 8 ohms.

A friend of mine pointed me to the Totem Tribe Tower speakers which use a pair of 4" drivers for the mids & bass and are rated at 30Hz.

A second friend of mine pointed me to the B&W 702 S2 speakers which use a 6" mid driver and 3 x 6.5" bass drivers and are only rated at 45Hz.

The Totem speakers are slimmer and use smaller drivers while the B&W speakers are larger (more internal volume) and use bigger drivers. So how is it possible that the Totem speakers are rated lower?

BTW, I read a reviews on both speakers and the reviews say that their bass ratings seem accurate to their rated value.

How is this possible?????
Click to expand...

What types of music do you listen to? Large scale orchestral music? Music featuring pipe organ? Pop music? Folk music?

Hi-res recordings (e.g., 24bit/192kHz FLAC downloads, Blu-ray, SACD) of large-scale classical music (e.g., Mahler Symphony 2) often feature far greater dynamic range compared to most pop music. (Pop music is often highly compressed.)

Will the speakers also be used for movies? If so, what type of movies?

How loud do you listen?

Will you be using a powered subwoofer? If so, how large is the sub? Will the crossover be before your main amp and speakers (i.e., so that low frequencies are NOT sent to the main amp and speakers)?

IMO, a specification for a speaker stating 30Hz - 30,000Hz is almost meaningless without stating the sound pressure level the speaker can deliver in an average size listening room ...
 
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robert_kc said:
What types of music do you listen to? Large scale orchestral music? Music featuring pipe organ? Pop music? Folk music?
- I listen to mostly Jazz, Classical and Light Rock.

Hi-res recordings (e.g., 24bit/192kHz FLAC downloads, Blu-ray, SACD) of large-scale classical music (e.g., Mahler Symphony 2) often feature far greater dynamic range compared to most pop music. (Pop music is often highly compressed.)
- I do use an Aurender N100H streamer (FLAC files) and have some hi-rez FLAC files.

Will the speakers also be used for movies? If so, what type of movies?
- No, just for music in a stereo (2-channel) system.

How loud do you listen?
- Comfortable, moderate levels with the odd louder listening when I have the house to myself (doesn't happen too often).

Will you be using a powered subwoofer? If so, how large is the sub? Will the crossover be before your main amp and speakers (i.e., so that low frequencies are NOT sent to the main amp and speakers)?
- I'm not interested in subwoofers.

IMO, a specification for a speaker stating 30Hz - 30,000Hz is almost meaningless without stating the sound pressure level the speaker can deliver in an average size listening room ...
Click to expand...
 
If you truly want to hear and feel bass response, you're probably going to have to explore good subwoofer options. Regardless of speaker manufacturer claims and specs, it will be tough to accomplish what you want with full range floor standers alone. I'm not saying that there aren't speakers out there that can reproduce fairly accurate bass. But, a good and properly set up powered sub will be able to dig down deeper while also improving mids and highs from your speakers because of reduced strain on your MAC6700.
 
samurai7595 said:
A friend of mine pointed me to the Totem Tribe Tower speakers which use a pair of 4" drivers for the mids & bass and are rated at 30Hz.

A second friend of mine pointed me to the B&W 702 S2 speakers which use a 6" mid driver and 3 x 6.5" bass drivers and are only rated at 45Hz.
Click to expand...

For what your looking for, I wouldn't be buying small drivers (woofers) in inefficient speakers. This is one of the reasons I like older speakers with bigger woofers and are easy to drive. As c_dk stated above your room and seating position is important to get good bass response.

I would be looking for older speakers that are rated at 125-150 watts, and 90+ db, having a woofer of around 10" or more. The music you like plays best with head room, meaning having around 50watts more in the amp than the speakers are rated for.

You also made these comments I can't quote because of the way you responded.

- I listen to mostly Jazz, Classical and Light Rock.
- Comfortable, moderate levels with the odd louder listening when I have the house to myself (doesn't happen too often).
- I'm not interested in subwoofers.

Looking at the music and volume you like, I'd be looking at some Martin Logan speakers, or some IMF Reference speakers, maybe some JBL Studio Monitors.

That said, don't just blow off not using a power sub, no one is talking about using it as a boom box you hear rattling a car driving down the street. In fact the sub shouldn't be heard much at all, but you notist a little difference when it's off. It will help a lot at lower volume levels.

You might want to look at Martin Logan E-Stat speakers and a sub they match with them.
 
samurai7595 said:
I'm looking for a pair of floorstanding speakers for my 12' x 14' living room.
Click to expand...

Looking at this, skip the ML speakers, your room is small and they need to be away from the back wall a bit. You didn't state the speakers you have now and they may very well be fine. Your room size and setup to fit the room might need some work. Sometimes we push the speakers to close to the wall, and our setting the same way in this size room.
You might be in a bass node
http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

Before you drop a ton of money on new speakers go to your local Goodwill or look on Crags list and find a cheap Power sub with at least a 8-10 inch driver. Spend 50-60 dollars working that in your room and see what that does for you.
 
Subwoofer integration into 2 channels system is time consuming and sometimes the result is not as expected.
Since the room is small. I will go with full tower speakers and with dual 8 inch woofers.
 
JBL Array 1400's are in that range now used....a spectacular speaker for bass, as well as pretty much everything else.

jblnut
 
Audio classics has some XR-7's for a farthing that you could use. Even stack a pair on each side. How about 4 ML-1 stacked. And I guarantee they reach down to 16 hz. You can always add another MC252 for the second pair of speakers if you think you need it. You might be able to find a pair of ML-4's that would shake your foundations, too. Very Clean bass. from either combinations. Folks use to stack ML-4's with two 2300's and blow Klipsch Corner horns away. Remember they start giving up around 40 Hz and are dead and gone by 25. You haven't heard a recording of a car door slam or steam trains fly past over rails with seam every 80 ft until you have heard them played over XR 290's or stacked ML-4's. Of course you'll need the mandatory Mac MQ equalizer to get the critically damped woofers of the ML-4's or XR-7's, to balance the room location. My first choice would be the MQ 101 but prefer the MQ 107 if you have a room analyzer. Remember its all about the volume of air and the extension the woofers can generate or how big and long the horns are. Klipschorns aren't big enough. In fact horn systems from Altec and JBL that stood 10 tall aren't big enough either. Even the More efficient JBL dd67000 or 4435 won't buckle your knees like a pair of stacked ML-4's. Bozak made some special speakers, called thumper, using his hifi drivers that would reach down to 16 HZ with 8 woofers generating over 120db in a test chamber to excite rattles in automotive designs. The system was so strong if you were accidentally caught in the room during test, you couldn't control your bowls. Two concert Grands placed side by side will couple together and reach below 20 Hz with a mono signal. One of mine easily reaches below 25 hz in my room. But they don't quite have the transient capability of a ML-4. Lets face it a ML- woofer will displace almost 3 times as much air. But also remember a Grand is 6 db more efficient. So what a 2300 will do for a ML-4 a MC 754 will easily accomplish with a Grand. Now I'll freely admit Ml-4's, XR-7 have much better top two octaves, but thats why I added Clestion super tweeters.
 
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I’ve never heard the Totem Tribe Tower speakers, so I will reserve judgement. With that said, in my experience you can’t defy physics – two 4” drivers aren’t going to deliver the full frequency range - and full power - of large-scale orchestral music – at realistic volume levels – without being augmented by a large subwoofer(s). (I have full season tickets to the symphony, and I’m always amazed at the power of a large symphony orchestra.)

My TV room is 12’ x 14’, with 8’ ceiling. The speakers in this room are Klipsch Palladium P-37F towers, augmented by a Klipsch P-312W powered subwoofer. (An Oppo BDP-105 universal player provides the crossover for the powered subwoofer – so that low frequencies are not sent to the main amps and speakers.) IMO, this is not “too much speaker” for the room. (I don’t listen extremely loud.)

The Klipsch Palladium are no longer manufactured. If I were to buy full-range tower speakers today – without a subwoofer - I’d strongly consider Klipsch RF-7III. (I’ve never heard the “new and improved” RF-7III; I have the prior-generation RF-7II in my basement system.) Based on my experience with the RF-7II, I’m confident that the newer RF-7III will handle large-scale orchestral music in an average size room – at any reasonable volume level - without sounding congested or distorted. I use tube amps, and I can tell you that the RF-7II can deliver very natural sound when driven by the right tube amp. (In other words, deliver the natural timbre of orchestral instruments.) Given your McIntosh solid-state amp’s tone controls, I assume you could achieve a natural sound balance with the RF-7III.

I’m aware that some people dismiss the RF-7III as a “home theater speaker”, however, I’m a fan of classical music, opera, and big band music, and I’m also a fan of the RF-7II. This winter, I’ve been listening to high-quality hi-res Blu-ray recordings of Beethoven and Sibelius symphonies on my basement system: RF-7II for left, center, right, plus an RF-7 as a single rear. I have a variety of tube amps I can employ in this system, for example I can use my McIntosh MX110Z / Scott LK150 to drive the front L&R speakers, and a Scott 296 to drive the center & rear speakers. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW. Source: Oppo UDP-205. It’s almost like being in the symphony hall. (The subwoofers aren’t really needed with the RF-7II to enjoy most music, but add power to the extreme bottom end, and can bring pipe organ pedal notes to life.)

I assume that the Totem Tribe Tower speakers have something going for them, but I suggest that you consider speakers that are capable of delivering a satisfying level of full-frequency-range acoustical power – which I believe for large-scale music will require something more than 4” drivers. (Particularly for uncompressed hi-res recordings.)

Bottom line: I suggest that you add Klipsch RF-7III to your audition list.

That’s my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

What tower speakers do other AK members recommend for large-scale classical music?

samurai7595, please keep us posted as you audition different speakers.
 
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With that kind of budget I’d seek out a pair of McIntosh line arrays - XRT20, Xrt22, etc. Full scale orchestra - no problem at all.
 
IOwning all three I can vouch for the Mcintosh XR19, XRT20, and XR290 with the latter being best down to 16 Hz.

All provide superb classical concert hall in the living room and are designed to be against back wall.

Throw in a MEN 220 to tame bass modes for your room if you can’t adjust listening position. Double bass, kettle drum, organ or locomotive no problem. Clean as can be had bass that can split your spleen.
 
Back in the day I would have already been out to your house and ran a voicing curve on your existing system.....

12X14X plus the typical 8 foot ceiling will always present trouble from the room nodes reinforcing each other to make for some tough cancellation issues.

Then for that size room I would have used something in the XR14 size with a MQ107 to smooth out the room issues.

Today I would start with a McIntosh MN220 and a satellite sub system that would allow the main speaker pair to be placed where the can create a correct image and a sub or two to fill in the bottom.

The room is just not big enough to support some of these dream speaker systems...
 
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