Modlin
Super Member
I use mac6700...now only as amp +tuner. Same kind of music.
I use Paradigm 95F. They do what they supposed to do.
If you want more info...email me
Bass Response
- Thread starter samurai7595
- Start date
I use Paradigm 95F. They do what they supposed to do.
If you want more info...email me
damacman
Resident Psycho
That's a good point Chris. 12' x 14' is a semi-small space. Maybe @onwardjames can join the convo as his space is smaller than ideal as well for the speakers he has in it.
Hey, thanks for letting me know about this thread, damacman. Yes, I got XRT20's wedged into an 11x10 space. It IS assisted by the fact that there is NO back wall, it steps up into another room (kitchen) but still very demanding acoustics to tame.
My wife bought a 30 dollar bundle of 1' x 1' acoustic squares. I took four at a time, turned them opposite one another, and hot glued to cardboard. I selected a color to match the paint of the walls (deep red) and systematically hung them on thumb tacks by way of hot glued 12 oz beer tabs on the back. Inelegant solution, but effective as hell.
I'll try to post pics. It really tamed the room, almost too much. A cheap solution I used for bass nodes was bed eggshell, but I rolled it into a thick cylinder, and covered with fabric. Works well!
My wife bought a 30 dollar bundle of 1' x 1' acoustic squares. I took four at a time, turned them opposite one another, and hot glued to cardboard. I selected a color to match the paint of the walls (deep red) and systematically hung them on thumb tacks by way of hot glued 12 oz beer tabs on the back. Inelegant solution, but effective as hell.
I'll try to post pics. It really tamed the room, almost too much. A cheap solution I used for bass nodes was bed eggshell, but I rolled it into a thick cylinder, and covered with fabric. Works well!
It is really quite amazing how the room interacts with speakers and equally amazing how uninterested most manufacturers, reviewers, and sales people are in taming those nodes and enhancing the speakers atributes to dial in, satisfy the end users expectations.
Back in my pro days we would use the auditoriums architecture drawings to create a computer generated space using a software program, distributed by Renkus- Heinz called EASE. This program was so powerfull that even the competitors would supply data files that would allow us to place their speakers in this virtual space.
Then we could determine flying angles, rig the system, and do the final tuning with Tefcron measuring tools to do the final system response.
Home systems guess and be unhappy, fuss with cables, power cords and tube rolling.......
Before Christmas I ran curves of 4 speaker systems in my shop space as part of dialing in a restoration and driver replacement experiment for a pair of ML1 speakers. I know I scanned the graphs, stored them somewhere, and will try to remember to post them tomorrow. The room effects are obvious as you test 4 different as all get out approaches to speaker design.
Back in my pro days we would use the auditoriums architecture drawings to create a computer generated space using a software program, distributed by Renkus- Heinz called EASE. This program was so powerfull that even the competitors would supply data files that would allow us to place their speakers in this virtual space.
Then we could determine flying angles, rig the system, and do the final tuning with Tefcron measuring tools to do the final system response.
Home systems guess and be unhappy, fuss with cables, power cords and tube rolling.......
Before Christmas I ran curves of 4 speaker systems in my shop space as part of dialing in a restoration and driver replacement experiment for a pair of ML1 speakers. I know I scanned the graphs, stored them somewhere, and will try to remember to post them tomorrow. The room effects are obvious as you test 4 different as all get out approaches to speaker design.
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jayvis
Addicted Member
I have to dispute that. REL designs their subs to be used in 2 and multi-channel systems. Took me a couple of hours to dial my sub in and the results are great. I couldn't live without mine now.
Velocityboat
Super Member
The Room Perfect capability’s of an MEN220 and the ability to address reinforcing bass nodes per each listening position is easily seen when you set up multiple Focus positions.
One just has to watch the power meters on the amp when playing a bass heavy source and jump through the focus, global and bypass positions. The amount of power needed will immediately drop for the focus positions where bass is boomy in bypass. As for addressing where there are null cancellations due to the room geometry I have not encountered this in my listening positions. I would think if room perfect did not address you could address with an equalization tool in the MEN 220 or another device or moving speakers using white noise and an analyzer tool. .
Is it possible to address cancellations with an equalizer? Since Room perfect can address frequencies at a 1/12 octave band maybe it works the additive close frequencies enough that cancellations at 1/3 or full octave are not ad evident to human hearing capability . It would be fun to play with in a difficult space.
The project goal was simple, find a replacement middome/tweeter and super tweeter for a pair of McIntosh ML1 speakers, and do it for less than a C note with minimum mods to the crossover.
Well the crossover needed more fussing than I thought but I did manage to get it to work OK by eliminating a inductor, some resistors and unwinding one coil....I did also replace all the old electrolytics.
When I went to run a curve with the mic at 3 meters from the speaker i realized I had no previous curve to show what the room nodes might do to the response. I then ran a curve for the three other speaker pair I have here in the shop space......DCM Time Window 1a, ADS M15, and a pair of Energy Veritas bookshelf size with a added on Paradigm sub.
The room is 16 ft wide 19.5 long with 14 foot ceilings......two 4X8 foot multipane windows bring light into the old factory space but certainly loose heat and affect the sound.
The room nodes at 50- 60hz, 100-125, and 300-400 are quite obvious.
Since I have a few MQ107s I put one into the setup to add the recommended bass boost to the MLs as Russell designed for them.
Well the crossover needed more fussing than I thought but I did manage to get it to work OK by eliminating a inductor, some resistors and unwinding one coil....I did also replace all the old electrolytics.
When I went to run a curve with the mic at 3 meters from the speaker i realized I had no previous curve to show what the room nodes might do to the response. I then ran a curve for the three other speaker pair I have here in the shop space......DCM Time Window 1a, ADS M15, and a pair of Energy Veritas bookshelf size with a added on Paradigm sub.
The room is 16 ft wide 19.5 long with 14 foot ceilings......two 4X8 foot multipane windows bring light into the old factory space but certainly loose heat and affect the sound.
The room nodes at 50- 60hz, 100-125, and 300-400 are quite obvious.
Since I have a few MQ107s I put one into the setup to add the recommended bass boost to the MLs as Russell designed for them.
Thunderbox
Super Member
Utter bull. There are plenty of speakers that have no need for an additional sub woofer. To think that all those speakers we listened to over the years that blew our hair back did it without a sub is unbelievable. Poppycock.
Thunderbox
Super Member
If you haven't heard the Tribe Towers maybe you should reserve judgement and stop it right there. Your preconceived notions about smaller woofers may be in jeopardy. Better to remain quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Part of the problem with bass reproduction is simply physics -- a 20Hz standing wave is larger than most listening spaces. Anything lower than than requires huge listening space! Works fine in an auditorium, but in the usual home listening space, it's hard to get clean very low frequency bass without significant interferences from the walls, floor, and ceiling reflecting the waves.
Add to that the need to move very large volumes of air for low end bass to be produced at all, and you will find a sub-woofer works very well if you want that very low end. A sub will produce ONLY low frequency sound when set up properly, unlike the woofer in a typical speaker which carries up to 2kHz signal, depending on design.
That said, there are speakers with large cones on the woofers that do a decent job at the low end -- problem is, then, getting clean low end out of your amplifier without including turntable rumble, wow, and flutter (or random A/D effects).
Personally I have no desire to "feel" the bass and have a strong tendency to wear -25dB earplugs in movie theaters (and in any place with live music). I want to hang on to my hearing as long as possible!
I wouldn't chase specifications nearly so much as attempt to obtain the very best listening experience.
Add to that the need to move very large volumes of air for low end bass to be produced at all, and you will find a sub-woofer works very well if you want that very low end. A sub will produce ONLY low frequency sound when set up properly, unlike the woofer in a typical speaker which carries up to 2kHz signal, depending on design.
That said, there are speakers with large cones on the woofers that do a decent job at the low end -- problem is, then, getting clean low end out of your amplifier without including turntable rumble, wow, and flutter (or random A/D effects).
Personally I have no desire to "feel" the bass and have a strong tendency to wear -25dB earplugs in movie theaters (and in any place with live music). I want to hang on to my hearing as long as possible!
I wouldn't chase specifications nearly so much as attempt to obtain the very best listening experience.
SomeGeoffGuy
Active Member
No regrets on my Klipsch RF7-III's for bass with my 6700. I have an REL home theater sub but I turn it off for music. RF7s might be a little big for your space though! If I had more cash, I would have definitely got some Paradigms. I heard Persona 3's at Axpona last year and thought they were the best sounding speakers of all the hotel room displays.
-Geoff
-Geoff
jayvis
Addicted Member
I used to have the same opinion until I tried it. A good and properly set-up sub bass system will improve the sound of any 2-channel speaker system. Take the time to try it and you'll see what I mean.
Thunderbox
Super Member
If your system needs a sub for 2 channel listening maybe you should look into changing things up a bit rather than adding something to supplement a week spot in the system. Yes I have tried the sub root. Anybody want to buy a sub? Oh and a set of speakers that don't work in a specific room. I know people who have systems that need a sub because their equipment lacks any tone controls or loudness functions. Many expensive systems have this problem. I know a person who has a rather expensive system $30000 plus. My first impression when I heard it was, where is the bass. That's right no tone controls at all on the pre. When a system is built it need to have more than a sub to support that weakness.
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jayvis
Addicted Member
Now THAT is Poppycock.
BANDWIDTH
Well-Known Member
Wasn't going to jump in - because of the influence of the room itself. However - regarding the lack of "tone controls" or something like a "boost" at low volumes ("loudness contour") was, AFAIK, done to compensate either poor recordings, or to tailor the sound for the listener. In my current Mac/Polk setup, (lots of current!) - I have yet to use the "EQ" settings and have it totally defeated (C52). Depending upon the source material, I am hearing rather incredible amounts of low frequency energy - to the degree that I would consider adding a sub superfluous. My .02.
Thunderbox
Super Member
Did I hit a spot.
Thunderbox
Super Member
Sounds to me like your system has been well planned or well tried.
jayvis
Addicted Member
Gregory
Soundco Kid
The Thiel CS3 series in the 80's had an active EQ and phase-coherent 6dB/octave crossovers, like the McIntosh speakers before them in the 70's with EQs, produce deep low bass. Both of my speaker systems have factory bass EQ boxes. For HIGH level listening it's best to limit low-end boost regardless of room affects in favor of lower distortion.
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/684cs3/index.html
The neighbors know this very well. Many nights we played DVD and Blu-ray videos with compression via the C33 that rumbled the walls and windows. But the Thiels and XRs of that era had their limitations and drawbacks.