Bass Response

[c_dk]

Well since this is the McIntosh forum I will suggest that Roger Russell in the "polite" McIntosh way did subscribe to the idea that most all speaker manufacturers did fudge their specifacations....or at least post them in a way to hide many of the built in nuances that helped them market their brand's signature sound.

The white paper describing RR's position on low frequency performance is available in the MacTech sticky as well as other desrtions at RRs website.

I can tell you many other speaker company owners were dismayed when we were armed way back in the 70s to explore what was really happening in the bass region in actual living rooms.

It is amazing so few are still unwilling to explore what happens down there in real world circumstance, but do rely on theory and blanket marketing hype.

 

[SaturationPt]

There will always be a difference between quantity and quality of bass. In my opinion, no normal house has a room where you can drop in a pair of speakers and a high-end stereo and have perfect flat response in that room. There will ALWAYS be improvement available from proper equalization, and in some cases a powered subwoofer will relieve the need for massive amounts of boost (and attenuation) to bring out flat 20Hz sound. Look at the XRT-20s that I recently sold for example, they are rated "flat" to 20Hz, ... if you have enough power and are able to create the proper equalization curves to produce it, ... The JBL M2 is another great example (and much more modern): it is flat to 20Hz, with the proper / matched 1200wpc bi-amp amplifiers (which have internal DSPs to flatten out their natural response).

A powered subwoofer can off-load the power requirements of a speaker at those low frequencies, a huge benefit to the amplifier's necessary headroom, and an additional benefit is the significant reduction of doppler distortion created by those long excursions that the cone is making while also trying to produce higher frequencies.

I have 2.0 and 2.1 systems set up, and if not for the additional time and space required for proper subwoofer setups all of my systems would be 2.1s.

If you listen to music without the lower octaves (much older music for example just didn't have it), you'll never miss it so that too would be a deciding factor here.

 

[c_dk]

There is no such specifications given by McIntosh for the XRTs or any of their other speakers.......

However those of us who have actually measured the response of speakers from any number of manufacturers can attest to many or even most of the McIntosh speakers can with the correct EQ deliver low frequency response down to 20hz.

This is not done with quess work or by reading advertising but actually measuring them in real living rooms.

 

[SaturationPt]

I seldom contradict your wisdom Chris, but this from my owner's manual:



You are correct however, it does not state "flat".

 

[c_dk]

I wish I could find my old notebook. In it are over a dozen XRT voicing curves as well as a few hundred additional speaker room interactions, mostly Mac speakers but dozens of other brands also.

With modern gated laptop generated signal generators and microphone options I am stunned every dedicated audio person doesn't at least explore empiracally room interactions.

 

[SaturationPt]

With a simple minidsp and calibrated mic most of us could room correct and eq for less than $200, it sometimes amazes me how much people will spend on their equipment without the basic ability to make it work its best.

Then I realize I live in the real world, where sounds great is all that matters to normal people, ... the bass-knob spinners, and happy is happy. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Gregory]

I seldom contradict your wisdom Chris, but this from my owner's manual:

View attachment 1809621

You are correct however, it does not state "flat".

From the mid 70's to the mid 80's I sent away via US mail to Binghamton for McIntosh catalogs and studied them over and over. IIRC Roger never published a Frequency Response chart or even a FR spec in those catalogs. These are scans from Mc catalog numbers 039-004, 039-159, 039-240, and 039-445.

Page 1 of the speaker section


Page 2 of the speaker section from the last THREE catalogs



-Greg

 

[Grenadeslio]

I'm looking for a pair of floorstanding speakers for my 12' x 14' living room.



https://blog.son-video.com/en/2015/05/review-jamo-concert-c109-3-way/

If you decide floor standers are too large and want to go stand mount with good bass response then the C-103 will fill the bill.

 

[c_dk]

Somewhere I have curves of all those speakers interacting in clients living rooms. Also have the 16s,18s,the 4 MLs, even the little 1s w/wo the passive sub.

I was talking to a audio friend a few days ago who lives a audio compromised life because he can not win a compromise with his interior decorator to position a set of speakers in a location to give him a chance for good sound.......a pity really. Loves to tweek with tube rolling and such trying to find, let alone grab the brass ring but can only have speakers in a dismal position.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Somewhere I have curves of all those speakers interacting in clients living rooms. Also have the 16s,18s,the 4 MLs, even the little 1s w/wo the passive sub.

I was talking to a audio friend a few days ago who lives a audio compromised life because he can not win a compromise with his interior decorator to position a set of speakers in a location to give him a chance for good sound.......a pity really. Loves to tweek with tube rolling and such trying to find, let alone grab the brass ring but can only have speakers in a dismal position.

If not his wife or significant other then your friend needs to grow a pair.

 

[c_dk]

With a simple minidsp and calibrated mic most of us could room correct and eq for less than $200, it sometimes amazes me how much people will spend on their equipment without the basic ability to make it work its best.

Then I realize I live in the real world, where sounds great is all that matters to normal people, ... the bass-knob spinners, and happy is happy. Nothing wrong with that either.

At this point I am not even suggesting the user does EQ, just make use of the measurement tools to see what is happening with the interaction, what positioning, absorption, etal, are doing in each space and when or if you get it right to your ears what is actually going on.

 

[c_dk]

If not his wife or significant other then your friend needs to grow a pair.

He jumped out of perfectly good airplanes for Uncle so I doubt that is a problem so I am guessing his wife is tougher than he is......

 

[Grenadeslio]

He jumped out of perfectly good airplanes for Uncle so I doubt that is a problem so I am guessing his wife is tougher than he is......

As I stated, "if not his wife or significant other" eh?

In their eyes we are all just meat if we know what's good for us lol ROFLMAO.

 

[SaturationPt]

I'd agree with you Grenade, but my interior decorator is my wife!

Where she has been very accomodating in letting me make pretty much any changes I want to the media room where my serious listening occurs, ... she has yet to allow a beautiful vintage system to grace the living room. I have offered smaller speakers that would hide beneath the piano, an out-of-the-way location for the electronics (and she admits that my vintage McIntosh gear if gorgeous), the happiness of my daily life is more important than having the LR equipped with and displaying these objects, ... it is her room.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I'd agree with you Grenade, but my interior decorator is my wife!

Where she has been very accomodating in letting me make pretty much any changes I want to the media room where my serious listening occurs, ... she has yet to allow a beautiful vintage system to grace the living room. I have offered smaller speakers that would hide beneath the piano, an out-of-the-way location for the electronics (and she admits that my vintage McIntosh gear if gorgeous), the happiness of my daily life is more important than having the LR equipped with and displaying these objects, ... it is her room.

Again, as I stated "unless she's your wife or significant other", sheesh.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Im lucky, my lady has no problems with speakers etc in the living rm.

 

[SaturationPt]

You are fortunate, that is a beautiful room and very nice system.

However, my media room is also a large room, has a high ceiling and panoramic views of the lake, has at any time at least three or four complete systems between it and the adjacent game room where more systems are in boxes and racks, and I'm never challenged nor punished for my choices on how I arrange that room and what I spend on my hobbies. I feel that given this space for my listening and display of my equipment plus my office down the hall with similar freedom, letting her "own" the living room is more than deserved. I do need to vacate the game room but timing isn't good to sell off unused equipment.

She has great taste and vision, makes our home look very good and sat with me for 8 hours in "my" room last night as I spun vinyl and streamed music, even refreshed my drink a couple of times.

Were we in a smaller space with one room for everything we might make a different compromise, relationships are complicated.

 

[Grenadeslio]

You are fortunate, that is a beautiful room and very nice system.

However, my media room is also a large room, has a high ceiling and panoramic views of the lake, has at any time at least three or four complete systems between it and the adjacent game room where more systems are in boxes and racks, and I'm never challenged nor punished for my choices on how I arrange that room and what I spend on my hobbies. I feel that given this space for my listening and display of my equipment plus my office down the hall with similar freedom, letting her "own" the living room is more than deserved. I do need to vacate the game room but timing isn't good to sell off unused equipment.

She has great taste and vision, makes our home look very good and sat with me for 8 hours in "my" room last night as I spun vinyl and streamed music, even refreshed my drink a couple of times.

Were we in a smaller space with one room for everything we might make a different compromise, relationships are complicated.

I also have a dedicated media rm with multiple systems, along with one in the Master bedroom, guest rm (my son who fails to launch' s system lol), etc etc.

My lady grew up with her father and brothers in a band so she has to have music in her life, so we have it in every room lol.

And thankyou for the compliments on the room, I picked out the rugs as a surprise for the little lady at our last digs. Luckily they were perfect for the new place pictured.

Some things have changed, this pic is more thsn a yr old but close enough for government work eh lol.

 

[c_dk]

Well since the OP started this thread to ask questions about getting realistic bass that you can feel in a small room it raises questions about what the OP considers good bass.

Not to be dodgy but personal percecption is so important.

Since so much of this perception is personal taste I come back to empiraclly measuring both what is considered good and bad........because most certainly someone's good will be someone's else's bad and vica versa

 

[62caddy]

I seldom contradict your wisdom Chris, but this from my owner's manual:

View attachment 1809621

You are correct however, it does not state "flat".

Somewhere in RR's writings I recall reading that he declined to publish FR tolerances because it would be influenced by placement, environmental factors etc. Almost all speakers from the ML1 and up, he claimed flat response to 20Hz when the MQ101/102 was used.

Im lucky, my lady has no problems with speakers etc in the living rm.

View attachment 1810257
View attachment 1810259

Nice Kenwoods.

Raising the speakers off the floor may result in some penalty to LF response. An MQ102 might be a good idea here.