Best and Most Cost Effective TT Upgrades

[mfsibbald]

Ok, so right now I have 12 turntables, as well I currently offer repair and service work as a hobby business.

Kenwood KD500 Grace 707
Hitachi PS-58
Rega RP2 Grace 707
Dual 1009
Kenwood KD 2055
Pioneer PL600 (not the plastic one)
Elac Miracord 750ii
Dual 1225
Denon DP45f
Sansui SR525
Micro Seiki BL41
....
oh yeah and some old Garrard (haven't even looked at this one)

I have swapped tonearms and upgraded tonearm wires and upgraded stylus and cartridges blah blah blah. I mention this only to say I been around the block a couple times with this analogue addiction.

There are TWO things that I have found that make the BIGGEST sonic difference for the least amount of money.

1. Cartridge alignment using a protractor and Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA). Alignment and VTA are different than just overhang and tracking force. Cost is free, but takes some time and involves a learning curve. Huge improvement for no new money.

2. The next one is using ANY decent RCA cable or converting to external RCA connectors so you can use decent RCA's

I don't go nuts and buy the million dollar RCA's. Just the heavier gauge ones with decent shielding and good connectors (component video cables are pretty good). I find mine in the cables bin at the thrift stores. I am handy with a soldering iron and the results of this change are staggering, and I mean totally amazing.

So before you take your old vintage deck and go spend 1000 bucks on some modern table, spend a tonne of money on cartridges, blow your vacation money on a tonearm or new 90 bucks a foot tonearm wires try getting the cartridge aligned properly and upgrade your RCA connection.

You will be blown away.

Anyone else have some amazing low or no budget upgrades?????
Love to hear them.

This little thread is not directed at the 15000 dollar turntable crowd. Not knocking anyone at all, but trying to focus the advice and feed back on the folks running a budget and have a good deck that can be better without breaking the bank...sensible upgrades you know what I mean?

Love to hear them.

 

[for_p1]

1. Sell all of these tables.
2. Get one new table with price $3000 or more (does not matter old or new)
3. Get new cartridge for $2000 or more
4. If table is not suspended type - get isolation platform like made by MinusK.
5. Make adjustments (azimuth, SRA, bias force etc.) using LP with test tones and measurement gear.
6. Enjoy best sound you can get for the money spent.

 

[Grbluen]

RCM.

 

[4-2-7]

1. Sell all of these tables.
2. Get one new table with price $3000 or more (does not matter old or new)
3. Get new cartridge for $2000 or more
4. If table is not suspended type - get isolation platform like made by MinusK.
5. Make adjustments (azimuth, SRA, bias force etc.) using LP with test tones and measurement gear.
6. Enjoy best sound you can get for the money spent.

I'm pretty much in this class.

If your really looking to improve and upgrade for sound quality you tend to spend your money on the best you can afford.

If your really into collecting you tend to spend just to get more components and sound quality takes a back seat to that.

So the most efective way to upgrade a turntable is not trying to own 20 of them, thats money spent on quantity and not sound quality.

 

[stereofanboy]

Which one do you like best?

Making sure one's table is solidly supported is basic and can cost as much or as little as your imagination dictates. Since I live in an off grade house, I'm a fan of wall mounting.

It's hard to tell if for_p1 is kidding around, being snarky or if he truly doesn't apprehend the gist of the original post. If that last, he may be suffering from a syndrome peculiar to a tiny region of the US.

for_p1, is your area code 202?

 

[grottyash]

I agree with selling the lot and buying something really good, plus upgrading the cartridge. Together they're easily the best upgrade, plus have the advantage you don't need to upgrade again.

 

[mfsibbald]

I recently received an nos stylus for my Shure m447, but haven't swapped it yet. I have a Dual 1019. I watched the setup video in the sticky section in this forum, but need a gram scale (found one on amazon) and protracter. I am not sure what I should get. Any suggestions on a brand, or style? Also plan on swapping rca's at that time. Thanks!

I have used the protractors from vinylengine. They have a bunch listed there, with a bunch of tutorials and explanations in their forums. They have been a great resource, I have printed their protractors and carefully cut them out for use with great success in terms of sound improvements. One suggestion for the printed protractors is the use of the "stupid" protractors and print them on thin business card stock, the non-perforated stuff. The normal office paper is too thin and tends to lift up off the record/platter surface when doing the alignment and makes it difficult to work with.

On the null point marks of the protractors (the cross hairs for stylus) I put a small pinhole to help hold the stylus tip in place. Then it's a matter of alignment starting on the inner null point and then the outer, you go back and forth till you have both as close as possible. I doubt that on the 1019, like my 1009 you will be able to get both null points as perfectly aligned as one would like simply because it's such a short stubby arm and the headshell makes alignment hard to see. There very well be a better protractor for these short arms but I have not looked to carefully yet. Just be sure when you print the protractors that the line provided is as long as it says its suppose to be. Some printers will resize and image and that will make your protractors null points wrong, just a little gotcha to be aware of.

Again these protractors are user submitted and free to print, making them a great budget upgrade/improvement!

 

[mfsibbald]

I'm pretty much in this class.

If your really looking to improve and upgrade for sound quality you tend to spend your money on the best you can afford.

If your really into collecting you tend to spend just to get more components and sound quality takes a back seat to that.

So the most efective way to upgrade a turntable is not trying to own 20 of them, that's money spent on quantity and not sound quality.

I can see by the Mcintosh tag that you're not in the budget class I was referring to. I realize I have a lot of turntables, I like to restore them and enjoy experiencing the different models. It keeps the hobby going financially by being able to flip them and move on to something else. Yes, I used the "F" word, flip. Its how I manage to afford to buy more vinyl and other stereo equipment, and God forbid pay a bill or two here and there.

Many folks are in the budget market, and the top end is 250 to 500 dollars including cartridge and stylus for a fully restored and ready to roll turntable. I am one of those folks, I have dogs and cats and kids and I have no place in my house where a 4 or 5 thousand dollar anything would be safe let alone something as breakable as a turntable.

Sooooo what I am trying to get at here is if you are in MY budget class, and enjoy tinkering and working on these old classics what sort of upgrades do you do that make a difference.

 

[mfsibbald]

1. Sell all of these tables.
2. Get one new table with price $3000 or more (does not matter old or new)
3. Get new cartridge for $2000 or more
4. If table is not suspended type - get isolation platform like made by MinusK.
5. Make adjustments (azimuth, SRA, bias force etc.) using LP with test tones and measurement gear.
6. Enjoy best sound you can get for the money spent.

So what I read from this sort of suggestion is "sell all you **** and buy a real turntable". Not really the feedback I was looking for, thanks though.

 

[Mitkraft]

I've been seriously considering replacing my fixed RCA cables with jacks so that I can not only swap cables but can easily remove my TT without having to re-fish my cables. Is there a good resource/thread for best practices and advice when doing so?

 

[2DualsNotEnough]

I've been seriously considering replacing my fixed RCA cables with jacks so that I can not only swap cables but can easily remove my TT without having to re-fish my cables. Is there a good resource/thread for best practices and advice when doing so?

My UTurn Orbit came with RCA jacks,and using a new set of Audioquest cables I picked up at a GW took care of a lot of issues Id had with old tables in the past,like one channel dropping out,or a hum that would come and go.Great investment.

 

[grottyash]

So what I read from this sort of suggestion is "sell all you **** and buy a real turntable". Not really the feedback I was looking for, thanks though.

I don't think anyone is saying that, only that you could sell all your turntables and buy something stellar.

 

[hi*ball]

Lately I have been working on a few Dual turntables. The biggest improvement to cost ratio on these has been replacing the worn original interconnects with new ones which I spend about $20 on. I think this is a very nice improvement for the cash output.

 

[mfsibbald]

I've been seriously considering replacing my fixed RCA cables with jacks so that I can not only swap cables but can easily remove my TT without having to re-fish my cables. Is there a good resource/thread for best practices and advice when doing so?

I have found that every table is different once you have the bottom plate off, I purchased all of my RCA jacks from ebay.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4pcs-GOLD-RC...835372?hash=item23124c24ac:g:6OwAAOxy-o5RzVrc

I found these to be inexpensive and free shipping. They work great and the build quality is excellent. I have used the black speaker binding post as a ground wire hookup. In the one photo you can see the jacks installed and the old phono board still in place before removal. You want to make sure that where you place the RCA's is as far away from the motor as possible, if you are to close you WILL get motor noise feeding in to your audio signal.

The one photo shows going directly from tonearm wires directly to the RCA connectors, placement of RCA connectors was convenient, tonearm wires were long enough and routing did not interfere with bottom plate or tonearm movement . The deck was plastic so easy job, Sansui SR 535.

In some instances you may have to reroute the leads using a short length of RCA cable, it all depends on the layout and available space. In these cases I would leave the phono board in and use a short length of RCA soldered to the phono board and then the other end soldered to the RCA connectors. When rerouting internally make sure the RCA's don't go by the motor.

And in some instances, like the Kenwood Corian base TT, I am terrified of drilling a hole for the RCA jacks and would rather just directly replace the cables with better ones utilize the existing exit points from the manufacturer. The picture with the spring type phono connector Kenwood KD 2055.

The other set is of a Technics SL1200 and the RCA and phono board are inside of a metal base plate under the tonearm, re-routing anything is a bit awkward because of the very specific design, KAB USA sells a very good external RCA jack box.

ALSO, if you solder RCA cables direct to and existing phono board you may not be able to reuse the cable holder from the factory. You will want to make sure that you have secured the cable inside the deck from getting yanked out. Zap strap to something secure on the inside to make sure ground wire and RCA cables are fixed to the table by something other than the solder.

There is no ONE way to do it per se.

 

[mfsibbald]

Lately I have been working on a few Dual turntables. The biggest improvement to cost ratio on these has been replacing the worn original interconnects with new ones which I spend about $20 on. I think this is a very nice improvement for the cash output.

Do you replace the jacks underneath or just the interconnect cables? I have been wondering about the jacks in if its would be possible to swap those out, have not tried yet but if you have any advice....tx

 

[mfsibbald]

I don't think anyone is saying that, only that you could sell all your turntables and buy something stellar.

I appreciate that, thank you. Just want to point out that the original post was not "should I sell all my stuff and buy something stellar?". I do tend to get frustrated when I perceive the whole get a real turntable comment from people who can afford to buy 5000 dollar turntables to hook up to their 30,000 dollar system. I got into this hobby because i could grab second hand equipment from CL, yard sales and places like that.

I have repaired and serviced many turntables since then and have gifted many to friends and family and love turning people onto vinyl. I just don't think there is any reason to drag one's nose across the ceiling when entering a room to look at audio equipment.

 

[AvFan]

Sooooo what I am trying to get at here is if you are in MY budget class, and enjoy tinkering and working on these old classics what sort of upgrades do you do that make a difference.

While I don't see any AR turntables in your list significant upgrades are available that will take those initially humble but elegantly designed tables to a very high level. The AR owners thread is a great place to look if you are interested. I don't have any experience with the turntables listed and given their variety I might focus my attention on things other than mods to the table.

Turntables need regular attention to make sure they are performing as intended. Every three months or so I check the full setup including alignment, VTA, VTF, azimuth etc to make sure the arm/cartridge are where they are supposed to be. I also do whatever maintenance is needed on the rest of the turntable including oil the bearing, talc the belt, check the platter for level, check the leads and RCAs, etc. While not specific to the turntable I periodically check speaker and listening positions to make sure nothing has changed (e.g. carpet cleaning, vacuuming, the decorator in the house, etc). Amazing how moving a speaker an inch forward will throw the balance off. After these things are done I'd focus on the turntable's environment plus the records themselves.

I think clean records make a huge positive difference. There is abundant debate on how best to do this but I don't think there is any disagreement that a clean record sounds better. Next up is isolating the turntable from external vibration. Some solutions could include a sandbox or improved plinth but probably the cheapest is a simple wall shelf in particular when there are wood floors. I too like good RCA cables and I install RCA jacks on the AR XA and XB turntable bases I make. I then make my own cables using red and white RG59 shielded coax with 75ohm connectors. I think these are inexpensive ways to make sure the turntable is delivering the best sound it can.

Just my two cents...

 

[4-2-7]

I can see by the Mcintosh tag that you're not in the budget class I was referring to. I realize I have a lot of turntables, I like to restore them and enjoy experiencing the different models. It keeps the hobby going financially by being able to flip them and move on to something else. Yes, I used the "F" word, flip. Its how I manage to afford to buy more vinyl and other stereo equipment, and God forbid pay a bill or two here and there.

Many folks are in the budget market, and the top end is 250 to 500 dollars including cartridge and stylus for a fully restored and ready to roll turntable. I am one of those folks, I have dogs and cats and kids and I have no place in my house where a 4 or 5 thousand dollar anything would be safe let alone something as breakable as a turntable.

Sooooo what I am trying to get at here is if you are in MY budget class, and enjoy tinkering and working on these old classics what sort of upgrades do you do that make a difference.

Everyone has budgets, and you asked for best and most cost effective turntable upgrade. If ones budgets is x amount of dollars and they spend 1/20th on each table because they own 20 tables. And then spend what they can scrape together and even free to try to support all theses tables is not best in my opinion. You premis for the thread is sound quality from what I read. So the most cost effective way to upgrade one table is to have funds to do so, all the while reducing other cost that that keeps hindering real advancement within ones budget.

I would not own the equipment I do if I felt the need to collect excessive amounts of equipment. That's the difference between a collector of equipment and others that try to get the best sound they can.

 

[mfsibbald]

While I don't see any AR turntables in your list significant upgrades are available that will take those initially humble but elegantly designed tables to a very high level. The AR owners thread is a great place to look if you are interested. I don't have any experience with the turntables listed and given their variety I might focus my attention on things other than mods to the table.

Turntables need regular attention to make sure they are performing as intended. Every three months or so I check the full setup including alignment, VTA, VTF, azimuth etc to make sure the arm/cartridge are where they are supposed to be. I also do whatever maintenance is needed on the rest of the turntable including oil the bearing, talc the belt, check the platter for level, check the leads and RCAs, etc. While not specific to the turntable I periodically check speaker and listening positions to make sure nothing has changed (e.g. carpet cleaning, vacuuming, the decorator in the house, etc). Amazing how moving a speaker an inch forward will throw the balance off. After these things are done I'd focus on the turntable's environment plus the records themselves.

I think clean records make a huge positive difference. There is abundant debate on how best to do this but I don't think there is any disagreement that a clean record sounds better. Next up is isolating the turntable from external vibration. Some solutions could include a sandbox or improved plinth but probably the cheapest is a simple wall shelf in particular when there are wood floors. I too like good RCA cables and I install RCA jacks on the AR XA and XB turntable bases I make. I then make my own cables using red and white RG59 shielded coax with 75ohm connectors. I think these are inexpensive ways to make sure the turntable is delivering the best sound it can.

Just my two cents...

I would love to get an old AR, just have not seen one come up that is stock and affordable for me. The possibilities are endless on this from what I have read!

That's very cool, what sort of talc do you use for the belts and any chance of pics for the RG59 and 75 ohm connectors. I have often thought that the coax would make stellar interconnects, my only hold back was the stiffness of the cable. I have spools of this stuff for my main business but was always concerned its like working with frozen garden hose. But I will definitely give it a try.

The sandbox idea sounds very interesting, would love to see a picture of that....my mental image is well probably not accurate :]

 

[mfsibbald]

Everyone has budgets, and you asked for best and most cost effective turntable upgrade. If ones budgets is x amount of dollars and they spend 1/20th on each table because they own 20 tables. And then spend what they can scrape together and even free to try to support all theses tables is not best in my opinion. You premis for the thread is sound quality from what I read. So the most cost effective way to upgrade one table is to have funds to do so, all the while reducing other cost that that keeps hindering real advancement within ones budget.

I would not own the equipment I do if I felt the need to collect excessive amounts of equipment. That's the difference between a collector of equipment and others that try to get the best sound they can.

Fair enough, I appreciate what you're saying, it's a very valid point. I to upgrade by buying up the chain as I go along.