Best and Most Cost Effective TT Upgrades

[Hoffius]

I don't think anyone is saying that, only that you could sell all your turntables and buy something stellar.

I agree with the above. I do like your upgrades to budget tables too, but how many tables to you really need. If you are set on staying that route my upgrade would be a record cleaning machine, good brushes and a good vinyl cleaner.

 

[Ken Boyd]

So if a person doesn't own a scale the best way to set the VTF is just before the stylus flattens out, I never thought of that, it just doesn't seem to be a very accurate way of doing things. How much do you charge to set the VTF for a customer? I am a bit reluctant to ask your method of setting the VTA.

yes I think the scale is in pounds, ha ha. I am going to pickup a small digital scale, I have generally trusted the arm increments and then looked at the stylus to make sure it was not flattened out. Only saw that once. A jeweler's scale is the way to go for sure though.

Actually...

The Hitachi PS-58 can be modded to preform better than most new tables.

Damn and I just ordered a new SME turntable with the SME series V tone arm, and to think of all the money I could have saved.

And then we have this post, to prove how foolish audiophiles can be. If only I read this post prior to my ordering the new table. We need more of these post to knock some sense in our heads rather than loose dollars from our pockets.

Your Kenwood KD-500 and Grace 707 is near SOTA for a turntable. Just match it with the right cartridge based upon your personal tastes. There is no reason to spend $5000 on a turntable that will not outperform the Kenwood/Grace combo. VPI's new TOTL is a $30,000 direct drive turntable. You cannot beat 1970s Japanese engineering. And there is the "law of diminishing returns".

Proper set-up and isolation completes the package then enjoy some vinyl.

You seem to be a person with more common sense than dollars.
Audiophiles have more dollars than sense.

Great tips on RCAs and coax cables here,

I worked in a Hi Fi shop when going to college in the 1970s and have been in this hobby ever since. I do not believe there has been a significant technological leap in turntables or cartridges since the 1970s.

 

[Djcoolray]

So if a person doesn't own a scale the best way to set the VTF is just before the stylus flattens out, I never thought of that, it just doesn't seem to be a very accurate way of doing things. How much do you charge to set the VTF for a customer? I am a bit reluctant to ask your method of setting the VTA.





Damn and I just ordered a new SME turntable with the SME series V tone arm, and to think of all the money I could have saved.

And then we have this post, to prove how foolish audiophiles can be. If only I read this post prior to my ordering the new table. We need more of these post to knock some sense in our heads rather than loose dollars from our pockets.

You ?

I just broke in a new PLX-1000 withv a Zu / DL 103 Mk.II cartridge. I only have one set up and was trying real hard to keep it that way. But this site is too much like standing outside the candy store looking through a huge glass window ! The specs on that hitachi, the noise ratio along with the wow and flutter out class most turntables. To go all out on this table would be more than just interesting.

 

[4-2-7]

So if a person doesn't own a scale the best way to set the VTF is just before the stylus flattens out, I never thought of that, it just doesn't seem to be a very accurate way of doing things. How much do you charge to set the VTF for a customer? I am a bit reluctant to ask your method of setting the VTA.



Damn and I just ordered a new SME turntable with the SME series V tone arm, and to think of all the money I could have saved.

And then we have this post, to prove how foolish audiophiles can be. If only I read this post prior to my ordering the new table. We need more of these post to knock some sense in our heads rather than loose dollars from our pockets.

Clearly a beginer

And to tell the truth the OP is laced with the notion that they are very experienced, and that people wast their money or it's not needed to have great vinyl play back.


In order to get responces like Mojo Warrior which lacks any credibility.

 

[for_p1]

As you might guess by my sig I'm a fan of the KD500 / Grace combo. As others have mentioned you already have a top notch table and arm, better than I think credited. If not completely satisfied try a top tier wood body Grado on the Grace and be amazed.

KD500 is good table and likely can support $1000 cartridge. But is is still nowere level of quality one can get in $5000 worth table. OP can afford $5-7000 table/cartridge if he sells all of lesser tables he has now.

 

[for_p1]

As you might guess by my sig I'm a fan of the KD500 / Grace combo. As others have mentioned you already have a top notch table and arm, better than I think credited. If not completely satisfied try a top tier wood body Grado on the Grace and be amazed.

KD500 is good table and likely can support $1000 cartridge. But it is still nowere level of quality one can get from $5000 worth table. OP can afford $5-7000 table/cartridge if he sells all of lesser tables he has now. I also wonder why OP keeps that many tables whe he is in business refubrishing and selling them. This is not financially efficient. Could it be that there in NO real market for analog sources in $300-3000 range? If so - there is no real following of vinyl playback.

 

[onwardjames]

So what I read from this sort of suggestion is "sell all you **** and buy a real turntable". Not really the feedback I was looking for, thanks though.

I don't think anyone is saying that, only that you could sell all your turntables and buy something stellar.

I don't believe anyone means what you think. Honestly, if you did sell all that stuff local, you'd have a nice pile of fun money for a really good table. Be open minded, because it's pretty good advice to sell and upgrade.

Lately I have been working on a few Dual turntables. The biggest improvement to cost ratio on these has been replacing the worn original interconnects with new ones which I spend about $20 on. I think this is a very nice improvement for the cash output.

I don't usually say "Oooh, I hear a HUGE difference" when it comes to cables, but getting new 17 dollar interconnects (from KAB, I think) for my Technics SL1400MK2 DID make a substantial difference.

And I own a very minty MCS 6601 (the technics knockoff) which most would laugh at. I took a pound of modeling clay, packed the underside of the plinth, added shrink wrap to the tonearm, and laid some dynamat on the top of the plinth in a few places, BIG DIFFERENCE. It is a very listenable and enjoyable table, in fact it is the one I do my digital transfers on.

Good luck with your vinyl pursuits.

 

[Kingshead]

If I sold all of my gear I could also put together one system that betters all of them, most here could say the same as well. If I only wanted one system then this would make sense, but this is not the case.

As for a $5000 table besting the Kenny, some may and some may not, but the law of diminishing returns begins to kick in at some point. If I owned a $5000 table and was looking to upgrade a $7000 table wouldn't even be part of the equation. Not to mention, not everyone wants or needs to invest $5000 in a table to be satisfied.

Could it be the OP plans on selling these tables to pay some bills, he did mention it was a sideline business. I could sell all of my electrical tools and fund a really sweet rig, but what about next month's electrical bill.

 

[4-2-7]

I don't look at the table as a function for sound quality unless it's a table that doesn't have capability.

You will get sound quality from a table that has a superior platter in weight and makup.

Build quality that serpresses resonance along with the the interchangability of arm boards with the same capability.

The isolation of outside forces that the suspension eliminates.

Run of the mill tables don't really have thes qualities that will make any effect on sound.

But if you want to save money and upgrade SQ, cartridge and stageing will be your biggest jump, you'll actualy hear it. I have no problem puting a $500-$1000 cartridge on a good functioning $200 table. It will make your table sound as good as a $1500 deck or better. If you have a $3000 table and put a $30 cart on it it will not sound as good as the $200 table.

 

[JP]

So if a person doesn't own a scale the best way to set the VTF is just before the stylus flattens out, I never thought of that, it just doesn't seem to be a very accurate way of doing things. How much do you charge to set the VTF for a customer? I am a bit reluctant to ask your method of setting the VTA.





Damn and I just ordered a new SME turntable with the SME series V tone arm, and to think of all the money I could have saved.

And then we have this post, to prove how foolish audiophiles can be. If only I read this post prior to my ordering the new table. We need more of these post to knock some sense in our heads rather than loose dollars from our pockets.

And to think of all the time I've been wasting on my Technics. Sigh.

 

[Mister Pig]

So much of this discussion of the capabilities of a turntable make some assumptions. One of them is that the rest of the system is up to the task of accepting a higher performance turntable. The other assumption si that the system is set up in the room in a manner that realizes the possible benefits of a higher quality analog playback system. This is not always the case. I have seen many system pics here on AK that show systems set up in a way that a $3000 turntable would have its benefits minimized in regards to quality of sound. You stuff speakers in a corner, or just on the sides of an audio rack and you lose imaging, sound stage size, skew the tonal balance, and a few other things go wrong. So in a system set up like that, an expensive table is a waste of money.

The KD500/Grace 707 can be a very respectable table. If a person listens to rock, pop, blues and what not, I would suspect there might not be significant gains to be heard by spending a lot more than this table. At least 90% of the time, would be my guesstimate. Now if you put a high quality cartridge on that Grace arm, I think you might get some very decent sound. A moving coil cartridge would be quite nice, but the trick is finding one that is high enough in compliance to work well on the Grace arm. There used to be some Ortofons from the 80's that could do that. Also the Audio Technica OC 9 III could work. That would be a fabulous combo, but even discounted its a $500 cartridge. But I use one on a modified AR XA arm, and it works very well in that light arm.

I would say trick the Kenwood out, see what its capable of, and then decide if its something you want to pursue further. But I suspect the OP is quite happy with the level of table he is at, and may not even be interested in a cartridge upgrade.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[onwardjames]

kingshead, I like my multiple options on equipment as well, probably more so than pursuing that final 5% of sound. It's just how I'm wired. Mister Pig makes a great point as well with this line.....

One of them is that the rest of the system is up to the task of accepting a higher performance turntable

 

[Gibsonian]

I can comment on the Grace 707/AT OC9 III combo as I recently assembled this combo on my TT. Sound is very good, and exceeds the SQ of my prior cartridge (Sonata 1) with same TT/tonearm. The OC9 III was a cheaper cartridge as well, so easily better bang for buck. I purchased the OC9 III it lightly used (~50 hrs) for $250. New is around $500. Sonata is more than that.

So my current setup and cost:

Sony 2251LA and Grace 707 combo.........$350
AT OC9 III cartridge...................................$250

Total..........$600

For me that is a really inexpensive way to listen to quality analog tunes. I went deeper and purchased a Rothwell SUT but that is another story and another thread. New TT/cart cost with equivalent performance to what I currently am enjoying would cost at least 4x that in my estimation.

So this is another vote to do some diy and affordable upgrades to Kenny/Grace combo, sell a TT or two and get a nice MC cart and meticulously set it up and then enjoy!

 

[Mister Pig]

I can comment on the Grace 707/AT OC9 III combo as I recently assembled this combo on my TT. Sound is very good, and exceeds the SQ of my prior cartridge (Sonata 1) with same TT/tonearm. The OC9 III was a cheaper cartridge as well, so easily better bang for buck. I purchased the OC9 III it lightly used (~50 hrs) for $250. New is around $500. Sonata is more than that.

So my current setup and cost:

Sony 2251LA and Grace 707 combo.........$350
AT OC9 III cartridge...................................$250

Total..........$600

For me that is a really inexpensive way to listen to quality analog tunes. I went deeper and purchased a Rothwell SUT but that is another story and another thread. New TT/cart cost with equivalent performance to what I currently am enjoying would cost at least 4x that in my estimation.

So this is another vote to do some diy and affordable upgrades to Kenny/Grace combo, sell a TT or two and get a nice MC cart and meticulously set it up and then enjoy!

So what you are saying is listen to the Pig. I like that. I like that a lot. One day Pigs will rule the world!!!

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[grottyash]

So the human race is sty-mied?

 

[Gibsonian]

So what you are saying is listen to the Pig. I like that. I like that a lot. One day Pigs will rule the world!!!

In a nutshell, yes. Thanks for your worthy advice Mister Pig. I have more questions for you regarding another tonearm I have in storage, upcoming.

 

[twiiii]

My solution back in the 70's was to get rid of the SME II and III arms and to go straight line tracking. With the primitive cartridges we had back then and the lack of understanding about resonance and damping between different the tone arms and cartridges it was just easier that way. After seeing the Marantz SLT-12 debacle and Revox's attempt I went with Rabco. Its by far from being the best solution. But if you were using marginal tracking MC Ortofons from the period, it was a real problem solver. And it still works fabulously with a Dynavector today. . So if you can stand B&O MMC cartridge sound a 8000 is still one hell of a TT system. It can track warped records like no one else. Other folks made straight line trackers, too. So do your homework. I keep thinking I want a new Prime or Arises III D, but until I actually see one work with a Dynavector and some of my challenging discs, I'm hesitant to make a move. I have something that works quite well, and all though I know the signal to noise could be 15 to 20 db better and the wow and flutter and few points better neither has specs that will guarantee where the rubber meets the road will be as satisfactory as my old straight line tracker. SL-8E are fairly easy to set up and you'll need to clean contacts and replace a C battery every 10 years or so, but other than that (shush the Tone arm maybe listening) no problems. Remember I come from the old school where if anything can go wrong it will.

 

[Mister Pig]

In a nutshell, yes. Thanks for your worthy advice Mister Pig. I have more questions for you regarding another tonearm I have in storage, upcoming.

Eh. I just wanted a reason to post a really cool pig GIF.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[RickeyM]

I'd like to throw in a few more "big bang for the buck" upgrades but these apply to the Technics SL-1200. The first addresses the platter. Untreated, it rings like a gong. The 1200mk2 actually comes with a rubber mat glued to the battom of the platter but it's glued so poorly, it's not effective at all. Rip off the rubber, scrape off the old glue and put on a layer of Dynamat Extreem. Make a template from a sheet of paper first tho'.
Another really cheap mod is take a length of shrink tubing, just big enough in diameter to slip over the nut that secures the headshell and shrink it in place on the tonearm tube. This cuta down on resonance the cartridge gets from tha tonearm.

 

[twiiii]

I can remember the day we got our little test box and tracking discs from Shure brothers. We had gotten our Sound Technology Test equipment previously. WE could run freq response curves, cross talk, channel balance etc. But what was interesting were the track ability test bands. And where a V-15 III or IV could track the bands and almost sound perfect, adjusting the tone arm bias weight could be a real issue. Ortofons would find them selves up in the air or sliding across the disc. Even older ellipticals from Stanton and Shure really struggled unless set above the maximum tracking pressure. So watcing a B&O 4000 or 40002 sail though the tests without even a hint of a struggle was a real revelation. Revox turntables with the V-15 was a real success, too. The only problem was these turntables were all cartridge specific, and I didn't like V-15's or B&O. It wasn't until later that there were straight tables that could handle different cartridges. So when the Rabco came out I jumped. I mean the Ortofons had to be very critically adjusted to keep them in the groove, vertical tracing angle was very important. We had also been using a Wild microscope to check stylus positions on the cantilever, etc and were having a fairly high failure rate. Forcing us to take on other lines of cartridges to guarantee performance. We ended up dropping Ortofon and Shure for a while to get the point thru. Thank God the CD came along, it made a lot of people wake up to quality control issues, but by then the hand writing was on the wall. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, early CD's and early players were not any better with quality control either, And most analog reissues were horrible on CD. So vinyl continued on and with serious improvements in TT playback systems finally evolved and we are now able today to really enjoy analog sound from vinyl LPs. On the flip side of the coin we just increased the tracking pressures for discos, scrapped the ultra light low mass tone arms and went for arms with more mass. Fortunately Technics came along with their DD turntables and Turn tables were no longer the weak link. Speakers were and always have been the weakest link, including, today. How many of you own speakers that will produce 16 hz faithfully let alone 30 HZ.