Best and Most Cost Effective TT Upgrades

[dcmfan]

I recently received an nos stylus for my Shure m447, but haven't swapped it yet. I have a Dual 1019. I watched the setup video in the sticky section in this forum, but need a gram scale (found one on amazon) and protracter. I am not sure what I should get. Any suggestions on a brand, or style? Also plan on swapping rca's at that time. Thanks!

I use a jeweler's scale like this one: Digital Pocket Scale (about $ 12.00 and accurate to .01g)



Dual tables often used a plastic tool to set the cartridge in the cartridge sled that attaches to the tonearm. Try this link for tips on setting up alignment for a Dual 1019: Dual 1019 and Shure M97xe

Good luck and enjoy!

 

[mfsibbald]

My UTurn Orbit came with RCA jacks,and using a new set of Audioquest cables I picked up at a GW took care of a lot of issues Id had with old tables in the past,like one channel dropping out,or a hum that would come and go.Great investment.

That is a classic design style, can't go wrong with its simplicity and sounds like it gives a great base to work off of if one wants to go down the rabbit hole of upgrades. Personally i like rabbit holes. Its very true that often with older tables there is work to be done in sorting out 2 decades of storage in the shed or under the stairs. I have even cleaned 20 year old beer spills out of tables.....I'm sure it was beer, yeh it was beer.

 

[4-2-7]

Fair enough, I appreciate what you're saying, it's a very valid point. I to upgrade by buying up the chain as I go along.

Yep
I have to save and save for what I put together and do it with thought of the outcome. If I just jump on everything that comes my way I'll just have a bunch of stuff sitting.
My best running and compleat classic car was my fist one. When I had five of them nothing was ever done and working its best.

 

[mfsibbald]

I use a jeweler's scale like this one: Digital Pocket Scale (about $ 12.00 and accurate to .01g)

View attachment 655230

Try this link for tips on setting up alignment for a Dual 1019: Dual 1019 and Shure M97xe

Good luck and enjoy!

I am going to guess that your scale is more accurate than this one. Ha Ha.
Going to read that thread today.

 

[dcmfan]

Cartridge alignment using a protractor and Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA). Alignment and VTA are different than just overhang and tracking force. Cost is free, but takes some time and involves a learning curve. Huge improvement for no new money.

Cartridge alignment is like exercise for me: I love the results but hate the process. But it pays off every time.

It got easier when I started using a headlamp from my camping gear and a 5x magnifying glass like these:

 

[dcmfan]

I am going to guess that your scale is more accurate than this one. Ha Ha.
Going to read that thread today.

That would definitely give you a "vintage weight".
But don't knock simplicity. I started with one of these:

 

[mfsibbald]

That would definitely give you a "vintage weight".
But don't knock simplicity. I started with one of these:

View attachment 655252

yes I think the scale is in pounds, ha ha. I am going to pickup a small digital scale, I have generally trusted the arm increments and then looked at the stylus to make sure it was not flattened out. Only saw that once. A jeweler's scale is the way to go for sure though.

 

[mfsibbald]

Cartridge alignment is like exercise for me: I love the results but hate the process. But it pays off every time.

It got easier when I started using a headlamp from my camping gear and a 5x magnifying glass like these:

View attachment 655246 View attachment 655247

Its an ordeal for sure, I have tried doing the job after coffee, now I do it before coffee. I know I look ridiculous when I am doing it though, all hunched over and muttering to myself with a magnify glass in one hand and the other on the platter trying to hold it all steady while I get "a good look at this sucker"

 

[hi*ball]

Do you replace the jacks underneath or just the interconnect cables? I have been wondering about the jacks in if its would be possible to swap those out, have not tried yet but if you have any advice....tx

So far, the Duals that I replaced the interconnects on did not have the RCA type plugs inside, just the spade connectores.

 

[AvFan]

I would love to get an old AR, just have not seen one come up that is stock and affordable for me. The possibilities are endless on this from what I have read!

That's very cool, what sort of talc do you use for the belts and any chance of pics for the RG59 and 75 ohm connectors. I have often thought that the coax would make stellar interconnects, my only hold back was the stiffness of the cable. I have spools of this stuff for my main business but was always concerned its like working with frozen garden hose. But I will definitely give it a try.

The sandbox idea sounds very interesting, would love to see a picture of that....my mental image is well probably not accurate :]

The RG59 is more flexible than RG6 which is commonly used for cable TV. You can purchase it in a variety of colors and by the foot at http://www.markertek.com/product/bl-1505a/belden-1505a-rg59-20-sdi-coaxial-cable-per-foot-black The 75ohm compression connectors are Steren 200-065s and require a special Steren tool. http://www.yourstoreonline.net/perm...a_10pack/id1102500/product.html?scomp=thefind There are more flexible coax cables available with corresponding connectors but I've used this combo in my stereo and home theater with success for a number of years.

The sandbox is just a shallow box filled with sand or sandbags with board on top that the turntable rests on. The board doesn't touch the sides of the box. The idea is the sand converts vibration to heat as the grains of sand rub together. I suspect sandbags are better than a box filled with sand as there is greater isolation and opportunity to dissipate heat. There are commercially available sandboxes for turntables but it seems an easy DIY project.

Lastly, I use Target brand baby powder to talc the belt of my AR. It has been proven by numerous studies to provide the proper amount of friction for turntable applications and it smells nice too.

 

[mfm22]

Thanks for the tips. I'm a believer in old school TT. Thorens , AR , Ariston , Linn etc.
all are suspension ,belt drive with heavy platters.

I'm sure you are correct about cartridge alignment - no doubt it's crucial as well as tedious (lol)
Wish I had more patience to fine tune my TD 145 . It works well now may sound better with some tweaking but
I'm also from the "if it ain't.broke " school Need to expand my scope

 

[Djcoolray]

Actually...

The Hitachi PS-58 can be modded to preform better than most new tables.

 

[N8Nagel]

So far, the Duals that I replaced the interconnects on did not have the RCA type plugs inside, just the spade connectores.

1019 and 1226 have RCAs at least; CS506-1 does not.

The former two however I wanted to use Blue Jeans but there just isn't room to fit those big connectors in there; however I used Mogami interconnects WR-xx series as they are very small (relatively) and have shorter connectors

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/RCA-RCA-Dual-Cables.html?brand[]=MOG

Their specs are not as good as BJC LC-1 but still respectable, and you've no idea how much difference it made on the CS506-1. I didn't use Fastons, I tried it at first and it was just irritating to work with, I ended up soldering the leads direct to where the old Fastons went.

 

[Mojo Warrior]

Your Kenwood KD-500 and Grace 707 is near SOTA for a turntable. Just match it with the right cartridge based upon your personal tastes. There is no reason to spend $5000 on a turntable that will not outperform the Kenwood/Grace combo. VPI's new TOTL is a $30,000 direct drive turntable. You cannot beat 1970s Japanese engineering. And there is the "law of diminishing returns".

Proper set-up and isolation completes the package then enjoy some vinyl.

You seem to be a person with more common sense than dollars.
Audiophiles have more dollars than sense.

Great tips on RCAs and coax cables here,

I worked in a Hi Fi shop when going to college in the 1970s and have been in this hobby ever since. I do not believe there has been a significant technological leap in turntables or cartridges since the 1970s.

 

[Mister Pig]

Everyone gets something different out of this hobby.. Some people like to have a hoard, some people like to build a single system to perform the best that they can. I will say I fall in the later, and really do not understand those in the former.

But with that said, I seem to have accumulated my own gaggle of turntables, so I am not walking the walk either. But I only got 5, a Galibier Serac, Thorens TD 124, Garrard 401, Technics SP 10 MK II, and Morin-ified AR XA.

There certainly is a benefit to having more than one table, but on the other hand too many is a dilution of capital that can compromise sound. You don't mention what you use for cartridges and phono stages, but there might be sonic gains to be had there if you can concentrate some funds. The KD 500 with 707 arm is a classic combination for high compliance moving magnet cartridges. But there are also some higher compliance moving coils that can be used on it, such as a Denon DL 301 MK II. and the same could be said for the Rega. I am sure the Denon and Sansui are nice tables, but a long with the KD 500 you have quite a bit of duplication of drive units, and those tables don't have quite the quality arm that the Grace is. But perhaps the automation functions are what appeal to you, I don't know. The Dual may very well give you a taste of what the idler drive tables are capable of, and there are many Dual fans on this site. But there are idler drives out there that have a higher ceiling of performance, at least from what I can gather.

A couple of ways to approach this issue. One is to pick out two, three, or four of the tables to get a high performance cartridge for, if you are not using them. A Denon DL 301 II or maybe even a DL 304 II would be quite nice. Or perhaps the Audio Technica OC 9 III, as its a higher compliance cartridge also. Sell the rest of the tables to fun the cartridges, and get take a meaningful step up the analog ladder.

Or sell the whole bunch other then the KD 500 and buy a great table and cartridge combo. Have the KD 500 around for casual vinyl listening. It is something I do, I have two tables out usually. The Serac is my main table, and the TD 124 is my beater table for rock and pop.

And as others have mentioned, keep your vinyl as clean as you can get it. In a perfect world an ultra sonic tank cleaner would be the first choice, but there are several affordable vacuum RCM units available. Usually under $200 if oyu provide your own shop vac. And others have DIY'd their own machines.

With high quality cartridges and turntables, things like cartridge alignment must be gotten right, and its a skill that needs to be honed. Good quality protractors, strong light, and magnification is always helpful. And align the cantilever to the grid, not the cartridge body.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[N8Nagel]

Everyone gets something different out of this hobby.. Some people like to have a hoard, some people like to build a single system to perform the best that they can. I will say I fall in the later, and really do not understand those in the former.

I suppose if I listed all my gear you'd think that I was in fact a collector/hoarder of early 70's mid fi to low end hi fi stuff... but the truth is I'm really not; I fall into the same category as you philosophically but the thing is, when you listen to a good system, you want one in the kitchen, in the bedroom, in the home office... you get the idea.

Now when it comes to turntables, I currently have two, one at my GF's place and one at mine, and one project, supposedly another project one coming if I can ever coordinate and get it because I keep getting slammed at work. I think I will probably only ever keep two for any length of time after I get them fixed up; the rest will get passed on to help keep the plague of Ion, Crosley and the like from blinding people to the fact that even a mid level TT from the 70's will wipe the floor with them and also be much kinder to your irreplaceable vinyl. Seriously, it sounds like I'm on a mission but I fall into stuff. The TT I'm listening to now is from a local AKer who basically gave it to me (I did pay him, but it was a really nominal sum) because he wanted it gone, and I just had to fix it because, well, what use is there in having stuff sitting around that doesn't work? Still needs the dustcover finished, the one I just took out of service was a Craigslist find but either I washed all the silicone out of the cueing damper when cleaning it or someone else did it before me and I haven't had time to disassemble and lube it properly. (no, just putting some where you can reach doesn't work - I tried to cheat.)

But I digress... I have tons of receivers and speakers, not because of a desire to hoard, but because of a desire to be able to listen to something that sounds good in every room. I don't generally listen to vinyl anywhere but the couch though - I'll take a laptop and DAC with me if I will be somewhere else for a long time, or for shorter periods I just listen to the radio or stream through phone and a headphone to RCA cord. Not real high end, but still better than bluetooth speakers and the like.

 

[Mister Pig]

Your Kenwood KD-500 and Grace 707 is near SOTA for a turntable. Just match it with the right cartridge based upon your personal tastes. There is no reason to spend $5000 on a turntable that will not outperform the Kenwood/Grace combo. VPI's new TOTL is a $30,000 direct drive turntable. You cannot beat 1970s Japanese engineering. And there is the "law of diminishing returns".

Proper set-up and isolation completes the package then enjoy some vinyl.

You seem to be a person with more common sense than dollars.
Audiophiles have more dollars than sense.

Great tips on RCAs and coax cables here,

I worked in a Hi Fi shop when going to college in the 1970s and have been in this hobby ever since. I do not believe there has been a significant technological leap in turntables or cartridges since the 1970s.

And we are off to the races!!! Tallyho!

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Mister Pig]

[QUOTE="N8Nagel, post: 9235892, member: 143663"]I suppose if I listed all my gear you'd think that I was in fact a collector/hoarder of early 70's mid fi to low end hi fi stuff... but the truth is I'm really not; I fall into the same category as you philosophically but the thing is, when you listen to a good system, you want one in the kitchen, in the bedroom, in the home office... you get the idea.

Now when it comes to turntables, I currently have two, one at my GF's place and one at mine, and one project, supposedly another project one coming if I can ever coordinate and get it because I keep getting slammed at work. I think I will probably only ever keep two for any length of time after I get them fixed up; the rest will get passed on to help keep the plague of Ion, Crosley and the like from blinding people to the fact that even a mid level TT from the 70's will wipe the floor with them and also be much kinder to your irreplaceable vinyl. Seriously, it sounds like I'm on a mission but I fall into stuff. The TT I'm listening to now is from a local AKer who basically gave it to me (I did pay him, but it was a really nominal sum) because he wanted it gone, and I just had to fix it because, well, what use is there in having stuff sitting around that doesn't work? Still needs the dustcover finished, the one I just took out of service was a Craigslist find but either I washed all the silicone out of the cueing damper when cleaning it or someone else did it before me and I haven't had time to disassemble and lube it properly. (no, just putting some where you can reach doesn't work - I tried to cheat.)

But I digress... I have tons of receivers and speakers, not because of a desire to hoard, but because of a desire to be able to listen to something that sounds good in every room. I don't generally listen to vinyl anywhere but the couch though - I'll take a laptop and DAC with me if I will be somewhere else for a long time, or for shorter periods I just listen to the radio or stream through phone and a headphone to RCA cord. Not real high end, but still better than bluetooth speakers and the like.[/QUOTE]

No actually I don't. I actively listen to my stereo, its something I sit down and make time to enjoy. I don't have a stereo in the kitchen, the computer room, or the bedroom. I certainly don't want one in the bedroom as that is where I sleep and do other things! I concentrate my stereo money into one system, and that works for me. But if I want to listen casually, a good set of powered speakers hooked to a computer would work fine for me.

But you certainly don't have to justify the way you enjoy this hobby to me, I am just a simple pig living in the country. If you enjoy rescuing stuff, fixing it, and passing it on....well that is super cool! I got lots of respect for those with the skills to reapir or DIY audio gear. I am officially jealous of you.

I happen to have 5 very interesting turntables at the moment, but I don't know if I will own them forever. They represent a significant amount of money to me, and due to a lifestyle change my audio kitty may not get any infusions for a long time. Which means if I want to buy a pair of excellent speakers, some of those turntables are going to have to go. But I plan on listening to all of them, and deciding which ones provide me with the best sound quality. But that is what works for me, and it doesn't have to be that way for everyone else.

Enjoy the hobby however you want, that is what I say! But if you want better sound. Well there are ways of achieving it..........but it might involve selling.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Kingshead]

As you might guess by my sig I'm a fan of the KD500 / Grace combo. As others have mentioned you already have a top notch table and arm, better than I think credited. If not completely satisfied try a top tier wood body Grado on the Grace and be amazed.

 

[for_p1]

I can see by the Mcintosh tag that you're not in the budget class I was referring to. I realize I have a lot of turntables, I like to restore them and enjoy experiencing the different models. It keeps the hobby going financially by being able to flip them and move on to something else. Yes, I used the "F" word, flip. Its how I manage to afford to buy more vinyl and other stereo equipment, and God forbid pay a bill or two here and there.

look, if you do restoration and then sell tables - you better get up the price scale. Assuming you make 50% profit on table. From $300 table you only get $150 likely after many hours of work. Now if you make the same profit on $3000 table - you will get $1500 after similar hours spent on restoration. If you really want to do business - start importing old high-end tables from Japan, recondition them and sell in US. There are a lot of relatively expensive tables can be found in Japan, but not that many people are ready to deal with importing them. And these tables go for much higher price when available for sale in US. That way you will eventually be able to afford $10K or higher table.