Bi Wiring? Is it a load of old.......

[ev13wt]

Bi amping, with active/electronic crossover shows way more results than bi wiring.

If you separate the lows from the highs/mids and send - amplify each to its own amp, each amp must only handle about half of the audio signal, thus it will sound clearer/cleaner/more in control.

Doesn't really matter if the amps are different or the same model.

 

[ehoove]

Bi amping, with active/electronic crossover shows way more results than bi wiring.

If you separate the lows from the highs/mids and send - amplify each to its own amp, each amp must only handle about half of the audio signal, thus it will sound clearer/cleaner/more in control.

Doesn't really matter if the amps are different or the same model.

As long as your crossover has volume controls for each band that is.
Regards,
Jim

 

[Coytee]

As long as your crossover has volume controls for each band that is.
Regards,
Jim

That's very easy to do. You can also insert some signal delay in some nicer units to for example, allow for different horn lengths.

by the way, if anyone wanted to match the signal levels in their active, I believe the forumla is 20Log*(V1/V2) where V1 and V2 are the input sensativies of each amp.

Once you get a number, say "6 or -6" (the negative sign doesn't mean too much as long as you realize the number 6 means the higher sensative amp (the one with the lower V number) needs to be attenuated by 6 db's.

Once you lower the more sensative amp by the appropriate amount, they are now signal matched in the crossover and you're good to go.

 

[ev13wt]

Many amps have input level controls as well.

 

[Brindabella]

So, the problem why some people dont hear a difference could be with the amp? (or speakers not doing what they are supposed to do)
So does anybody know what makes a good bi wiring amp different from a bad one?

Knowledge on subject zero. Experience, the Denon PMA1500ea has only one speaker output yet has 4 speaker binding posts for bi-wiring. Ran it without bi wiring for a few years. Eventually bought extra cable and Bi-wired it to Jamo D590,s, listened to it, a small difference to the bass, more controlled, tighter and the top end was slightly clearer. It was worthwhile.

Then the chance to buy a Yamaha AX1080 came up which is what I heard the D590's on when I was auditioning them 10 years earlier. Hooked up the Yamaha without bi-wiring and don't miss it, a very different beast to the Denon.

But if I ever hook up the Denon again to the D590's I would definitely bi-wire again.

If it is easy for you to do it then yep go for it. I am not sure I would mod speakers to be able to do it.

 

[pitabread]

I think modding the speakers might be beyond my ability.
I haven't had a chance today to sort out the little missions but might get around to it tonight. I'm actually looking forward to listening to them again.

 

[Brindabella]

I think modding the speakers might be beyond my ability.
I haven't had a chance today to sort out the little missions but might get around to it tonight. I'm actually looking forward to listening to them again.

Not giving up on your Yamaha speakers are you?

 

[Pandovski]

Last bi-wiring I did was with a Marantz PM-80 MkII and Tannoy Profile 631 speakers connected through Audioquest Type 4 cables. Even on those little buggers I heard improvements from the Bi-wiring. Both Marantz and Tannoy endorse Bi-Wirring IIRC.

 

[pitabread]

Not giving up on your Yamaha speakers are you?

Nope , never, I just want to try out this Bi Wiring malarkey.

 

[ev13wt]

One other way to see bi wiring is that you are replacing the bridge with wire. Because basically that is all one is doing. Instead of hooking up two wire to the bridge, you are making the bridge at the amps output and running 4 wires to the speakers.

 

[89grand]

None of my speakers are even bi-wireable, and I prefer that way. I don't have to obsess over microscopic improvements real or imagined.

 

[mjw757]

I own a pair of Linn Keilidh speakers which were specifically designed to be bi wired
or bi/tri amped. I have them biwired with my amp's A speaker o/p feeding bass and the C o/p feeding the treble. I think it sounds better, but without the ability to do a comparison, it may just be expectation bias.
The confirmable benefit is the ability to isolate and monitor bass and treble at the amp.

 

[SoCal Sam]

Bi-amp folks. That is the only way to increase headroom and to have power in reserve as a cushion against compression, which can definitely be heard. Bi-wire does increase the pathway to the speakers but thicker speaker wire will also do the same. IMO, whatever improvements you may perceive are psycho-acoustic and like so many other 99/100th strategies in audio, self-validating.

 

[mikeburns]

Sorry to hijack the thread but I have two rotel rb971s bridged running mono to each speaker? Do you think this is better for overall headroom than having them unbridged and biamping with biwires? Total output is 80watts unbridged and like 180W bridged (of course it drops from 4ohm capable to only 8ohm capable after bridging, my speakers are 8ohm). When I listened to one amp working I noticed a degree of messiness at high volumes, now bridged I dont get that messiness until very high volumes...

 

[Artie]

I understand that Bi Amping ''might'' have a positive effect but to be honest I only see this being beneficial if you match the amps to the speakers/cross overs carefully and the fact that you can control the volume independently.

The whole point of bi-amping is to eliminate the speaker cross-over. You move the x-over from hi-level to line-level.

Edit: I posted this before I realized that there were already four pages. This has probably already been covered. :sigh:

 

[Pandovski]

Active crossover vs Bi-amping vs Bi-Wiring.

If you really need a few clean watts and amperes to get great sound and SPL, and if Bi-Wiring gives subtle to non audible results, then we are left with upgrading from Passive to Active crossovers as a real game changer.

Thoughts?

 

[mech986]

The whole point of bi-amping is to eliminate the speaker cross-over. You move the x-over from hi-level to line-level.

Edit: I posted this before I realized that there were already four pages. This has probably already been covered. :sigh:

Well, this is partially true. The active or electronic crossover before the amp can be used to separate the driver frequency ranges, but they do so in a general way, at smooth slopes of 12, 18, or 24db/octave. But unless you have a sophisticated unit, they don't do much other Frequency response shaping for the individual driver and to compensate for its characteristics. The passive crossovers usually are built for that purpose and many times stay in place for the amp to drive along with the driver - think of it as a system so that what comes out is what acoustic output the designer wanted that driver to have.

If you remove the crossover and drive the driver directly, you only get a flat amp response and any anomalies that the driver has intrinsically will still be there, unequalised. Also, some crossover components work to present a smooth easy to drive load to the amp across the working frequency - sometimes that's important and sometimes it isn't.

Of course, if you have one of the newest digital crossover and room sampling/frequency compensating crossovers, then that changes everything.

 

[marc mc]

Well, this is partially true. The active or electronic crossover before the amp can be used to separate the driver frequency ranges, but they do so in a general way, at smooth slopes of 12, 18, or 24db/octave. But unless you have a sophisticated unit, they don't do much other Frequency response shaping for the individual driver and to compensate for its characteristics. The passive crossovers usually are built for that purpose and many times stay in place for the amp to drive along with the driver - think of it as a system so that what comes out is what acoustic output the designer wanted that driver to have.

Not my experience at all.

marc mc

 

[austi15]

If you try it and feel it's an improvement, good. If you try it and feel it's no different, good. If you try it and feel it's worse, good. It's a win-win to try it, at the very least you learn something.

I tried it with my L7s since the jumpers are thinner than the sides of a Slurpee cup. I figure if I'm pushing 450wpc, that COULD improve something. Did it work? I "heard" an improvement in the highs. Is that the placebo effect? Probably, but I had the wire and it gave me either a free upgrade or the illusion of an upgrade. Plus, you know, it's a "hobby"... and all that

To spend any money I'd probably want to have someone blind a/b me at least.

 

[pitabread]

If you try it and feel it's no different, good. If you try it and feel it's worse, good. It's a win-win to try it, at the very least you learn something.

I tried it with my L7s since the jumpers are thinner than the sides of a Slurpee cup. I figure if I'm pushing 450wpc, that COULD improve something. Did it work? I "heard" an improvement in the highs. Is that the placebo effect? Probably, but I had the wire and it gave me either a free upgrade or the illusion of an upgrade. Plus, you know, it's a "hobby"... and all that

To spend any money I'd probably want to have someone blind a/b me at least.

See thats the thing, a lot of people dont have the cable so they go out and spend hard earned on it only to find out it didnt work.

I dont believe in magic, I believe that this works for some and not for others, I also believe that manufacturers could at least tell us what equipment would benefit and what equipment wont.

For the industry (media, manufacturers, suppliers) to allow people to upgrade on the basis that it ''might'' work because its basically black magic without giving any solid basis on which a decision can be made is a tad outrageous dont you think? Thank goodness we have these forums.