Bi Wiring? Is it a load of old.......

[stish]

The issue with the manufacturers giving us the straight skinny is that many times they won't. If they decide their equipment won't benefit from bi-wiring and say so, they loose as customers those customers who think that bi-wiring is the cat's meow. So they won't do that.

If you want to try bi-wiring at low cost, use some large gauge zip cord for both runs. (Maybe 12 or 14 gauge wire). If you hear a difference between 1 run of wire and 2 then you can decide if it is worth investing is whatever wire of choice you want to use.

Shelly_D

This is exactly what I did many years ago when I had a pair of Polk SRS 3.1 SDA's driven by an Adcom GFA555 II. I can only say that with these pieces there was a significant difference for the better. No speakers I've owned since had the option.

 

[shelly_d]

What if the lie about sound? They used to tell big fibs about the importance of THD, and while their numbers were verifiable, the THD war turned out to be a total crock.

Actually, for those of us who (like me) want accuracy in reproduction THD is a very relivent spec. To those who seek musicality, low THD is less important. I have no way of proving what I am about to say, but I believe that if two amps, otherwise identical were tested, with identical specs of say 0.1% THD, side by side, but one produced mostly even order harmonics and the other odd order harmonics, most would find the even order amp more musical and therefore pleasing. For those of us who don't want out amps coloring the sound, low THD is still an important value.

Shelly_D

 

[Bigerik]

Actually, for those of us who (like me) want accuracy in reproduction THD is a very relivent spec. To those who seek musicality, low THD is less important. I have no way of proving what I am about to say, but I believe that if two amps, otherwise identical were tested, with identical specs of say 0.1% THD, side by side, but one produced mostly even order harmonics and the other odd order harmonics, most would find the even order amp more musical and therefore pleasing. For those of us who don't want out amps coloring the sound, low THD is still an important value.

Shelly_D

Every amp colors the sound. Now, as always, its about picking the coloration you like.

 

[ev13wt]

Nope, from what I read it runs back to the amp and discharges, or the amp or any amp for that matter is designed to deal with it. But I see what you mean , personally I dont think its an issue either.

So this charge knows it must exit to the amp at the connection point? It doesn't go back up the wire that is connected to the tweeter? After all, everything that exits a stereo amp is connected to the last transistor of each channel, right? Be it speakers a or b or both.

So in essence, bi-wiring is the same as doubling up the size of a single wire, nothing more nothing less. Since this is so, let me quote Bigerik here:

What if the lie about sound? They used to tell big fibs about the importance of THD, and while their numbers were verifiable, the THD war turned out to be a total crock.

Since it seem that THD value under a certain point, for the sake of argument lets assume 0.1% as talked about in this thread which prompted the above response, are a total crock ... I conclude the doubling of wire from amp to speakers is pretty much the same as running one twice as big wire to the speakers bi-amping post with its bridge installed.

If there is a difference to be heard, it will definitely be under 0.0001% and thus must also be a total crock.

:tresbon:

 

[pitabread]

So this charge knows it must exit to the amp at the connection point? It doesn't go back up the wire that is connected to the tweeter? After all, everything that exits a stereo amp is connected to the transistor, right? Be it speakers a or b or both.

So in essence, bi-wiring is the same as doubling up the size of a single wire, nothing more nothing less. Since this is so, let me quote Bigerik here:





:tresbon:

I dont think its audible , or we would have heard it by now. So perhaps it does travel to the other speakers, it just doesnt make an audible difference.

Or, perhaps on some speakers it does, hence the some can some cant scenario.

 

[frommerstop]

I've recently tried it, since I had double runs of wire for bi-amping anyway, and was VERY surprised to hear a slight affect. I don't think it is substantial, but I'm keeping my KEFs bi-wired at least until I have my B-12s serviced. and go back to bi-amping.

I have to admit, I never really gave the idea much weight, but Richard Vandersteen seems to have a plausible explanation of why it works.

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm

 

[ev13wt]

^^ Good technical read, thanks.

 

[matteos]

Some people practice this hobby like wine tasting and some like carpentering. The first bunch would rather read metaphors than chemistry lessons about their wine tasting. The later bunch enjoys reading specs and performance comparisons how chrome-vanadium is better than tempered steel for this or that knife etc.

Marketing wizards will get our disposable income either way, with magic wine metaphors or with super powerful tools spec talk. Why? Because we want to give it to them, thus the attribute disposable.

So nobody wins and nobody looses really. The two camps have occasional conflicts but we can't ignore the fact we are the opposite ends of the same body. Most of us are stuck in the middle.

That's true. And there's merit to both sides.

 

[robgmn]

People can do whatever they want, but it's honestly tiring to hear the old "listen for yourself to learn the proof" when no one can provide a proof.

It's been proven time and again that our perception may be OUR reality, but it is not necessarily REALITY.

So please, stop telling people they don't need statistical proof with the statement that empirical proof is all that really matters.
It's getting old.

 

[Frank Sol]

People can do whatever they want, but it's honestly tiring to hear the old "listen for yourself to learn the proof" when no one can provide a proof.

It's been proven time and again that our perception may be OUR reality, but it is not necessarily REALITY.

So please, stop telling people they don't need statistical proof with the statement that empirical proof is all that really matters.
It's getting old.

Many things in life , audio pleasure is one of them , may defy logic...

 

[matteos]

People can do whatever they want, but it's honestly tiring to hear the old "listen for yourself to learn the proof" when no one can provide a proof.

It's been proven time and again that our perception may be OUR reality, but it is not necessarily REALITY.

So please, stop telling people they don't need statistical proof with the statement that empirical proof is all that really matters.
It's getting old.

Let's delve into metaphysics!

 

[Brindabella]

People can do whatever they want, but it's honestly tiring to hear the old "listen for yourself to learn the proof" when no one can provide a proof.

#### I would have thought, a reasonable reason to listen for yourself is to find out if you can hear a difference and if there is then that was proof .

It's been proven time and again that our perception may be OUR reality, but it is not necessarily REALITY.

#####Don't mean to be picky, but proven by who, when and under what circumstances. Your statement is broad, I hear it as a conversation closer when clearly lots are happy to talk about bi-wiring. It is a topic worthy of conversation don't you think?

So please, stop telling people they don't need statistical proof with the statement that empirical proof is all that really matters.
It's getting old.

##### Why is empirical and/or statistical proof all that matters, who made that the only rule. In this hobby like many others there are many paths and none end up at the same place. Personally, empirical and/or statistical evidence is great when available and worthy of consideration, but I would never discount other forms of evidence or disrespect perception, real or imagined.

##### You leave more questions than you answer, have you ever bi-wired a set of speakers? If yes, no audible difference was heard on your part and yet others have heard a difference, the empirical and/or statistical data suggests respectfully its time for a hearing test.

##### AK is diverse and therefore divergent discussion should be promoted for each person to make up their own mind and take their own audio journey.

 

[sb47]

A theory is just that, until proven fact.
The audio industry uses these theories for there marketing affects on the general public that will buy into it.
It’s no different then a car salesman feeding you what you want to hear in order to make a there product seem like its better then the competition.
And the argument goes exactly like this. Well sr. I say I can hear the difference and I can show you the facts on a graph in numbers that my marketing team has employed to prove it. You sr. must not have the ability to hear the difference because your hearing is not good enough, and or you don’t know how to listen for it.
Therefore you’re inferior of hearing it. So your opinion means nothing to them, they just clam your not good enough to hear it.
Thing is there is no way to actually prove what they clam, because everyone is different and hears things differently, depending on many factors.

 

[robgmn]

##### Why is empirical and/or statistical proof all that matters, who made that the only rule. In this hobby like many others there are many paths and none end up at the same place. Personally, empirical and/or statistical evidence is great when available and worthy of consideration, but I would never discount other forms of evidence or disrespect perception, real or imagined.

##### You leave more questions than you answer, have you ever bi-wired a set of speakers? If yes, no audible difference was heard on your part and yet others have heard a difference, the empirical and/or statistical data suggests respectfully its time for a hearing test.

##### AK is diverse and therefore divergent discussion should be promoted for each person to make up their own mind and take their own audio journey.

I'll repeat "people can do whatever they want".

And I'll repeat that I'm tired of the statement that one's perception is the only thing that matters.
If that were the case, our lives would be a major s**tstorm every day.

Again, there are people who want PROOF that a perception is real and not all "in their (or someone's) head".
People who discount that desire as irrelevant without doing a personal test first are just plain silly.


And yes, I know that bi-amplifying can make a big difference.

I believe that bi-wiring is bunk unless you are using wires that differ heavily from each other in their electrical properties (enough to alter the signal that goes from amp to speaker, which a wire should NOT do).

I believe that power cords do not change the sound of the system unless the original is in some way defective or the new power cord is an active circuit (i.e. line conditioner with power reserve).

I believe that double-blind or ABX testing can be used to separate truth from BS, especially when we're talking about components/tweeks that are described as making "huge" differences in the sound of a system.

I believe that any speaker wire or interconnect that has a "sound character" is defective as it is altering the electrical signal in some way.

I believe that amps, preamps, CD players, etc. can sound different from each other, but that the more expensive they are, the more they should sound the SAME as each other. (Just as I believe two diamonds that are very high in similar price should be closer in quality to each other than two diamonds that are low priced).

I believe that if enough people experience a phenomenon, that phenomenon can be proven to exist in some way (and that claiming it can't be is akin to believing in magic).

I don't believe that mediums, psychics or fortune tellers have their claimed abilities as there has never been one that was able to prove their abilities under scrutiny.
When they do, I will believe them.

 

[Frank Sol]

And I'll repeat that I'm tired of the statement that one's perception is the only thing that matters.

Let's stick to audio...

If I came to your listening room and hated what I heard would it (my perception) matter to you?

 

[sb47]

Our hearing (your hearing) changes from day to day and what’s called hearing fatigue.
I have been a musician for most of my life, and most of the time I can tune a guitar perfectly with just my ears and not using a tuner.
And some days even with a tuner that says its in perfect tune, my ears tell me different.
I can stop playing for awhile and pick up that same guitar a little while later and it sounds perfectly in tune, (verified by a tuner).
So what was the problem? “ME” I was the one not hearing it properly. So from a lifetime of this kind of phenomenon I know it affect others as well.


Have you ever listened to your system and found it sounding differently from one day to the next? Even though you changed nothing?
The problem is not the equipment, but us and how we hear it.

 

[DougMac]

I wired my home theater with L/C/R bi-wired. I have Ascend speakers which have two binding posts with a jumper. The crossover circuitry is separate. My Onkyo AVR allows you to run 7.1 or 5.1 using the amps for the back surround for bi-wiring.

I tested in 5.1 bi-wired mode and 7.1 normal mode. I could not tell any difference, so I'm running in 7.1 now. YMMV

 

[JoeESP9]

Everything that has anything to do with listening to music comes down to the subjective in the end. That's why the only way to know for yourself if bi-wiring works for you (using your choice of music in your room with your gear) is to try it for yourself. No shame or harm will come to you if you hear no difference. OTOH, strict objectivists will accuse you of being subject to psychoacoustic factors. I say who the *uc* cares. Any other time those same persons will tell you that whatever you like or think (especially with tone controls) is best is OK.

I find it very interesting that the naysayers think it's alright to do or use what they approve of but not anything they don't. I may not like everything but I strongly support everyone's right to do and/or try anything they want, that may subjectively or objectively improve the sound of their system.

It can't possibly hurt anyone or anything to give bi-wiring a try. If you hear no difference you've at minimum learned something. If you hear a difference you've definitely learned something. Whatever you hear or don't, trust your own ears not what someone with an agenda tells you.

 

[sb47]

The mind is a powerful thing, I saw a documentary where mental perception was being tested.

In a blind test, people were tested to see if they could tell hot from cold.
The people were blindfolded and some were touched with something hot and some cold.
Some of the people that were told they were being touched with something hot, when in reality it was cold. Some of those people actually developed burn blisters from something cold, because in there mind they were told it was hot.

Perception is something I think we all can be fooled by.

 

[JoeESP9]

I wired my home theater with L/C/R bi-wired. I have Ascend speakers which have two binding posts with a jumper. The crossover circuitry is separate. My Onkyo AVR allows you to run 7.1 or 5.1 using the amps for the back surround for bi-wiring.

I tested in 5.1 bi-wired mode and 7.1 normal mode. I could not tell any difference, so I'm running in 7.1 now. YMMV

What does the mode have to do with bi-wiring?