Bi Wiring? Is it a load of old.......

[luvvinvinyl]

Not really "black magic", or "malarkey". It's subjective. IOW, a matter of opinion.

Hypothetical situation:

Take a given system, in a given room. The only variable is the listener. Listener A hears a difference between bi-wired and not bi-wired. Listener B hears no difference between bi-wired, with the same pairs of wire, and not bi-wired.

Who's right? Both are right.

Now, let's run the test again, only, this time, let's change up the wire, to something different from the first one. Silver, larger, smaller, solid-core vs stranded, even just different manufacturer, but, somehow, it's something different from the first one. Now Listener A hears no difference between bi-wired and not, but Listener B does. Again, who's right? Again, both are right.

You can extend this to changing any piece of gear, or the same system in two different rooms, or just change pairs of listeners. The results are still the same. Each one is right about what they hear.

What can you predict about individual response to one or another change in a system?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Manufacturers make make "recommendations" about the 'probable' results you may experience with certain changes, but they know that they cannot make any specific guarantees that will apply to all users.

So, even though several people report a certain change gives certain results, when you make the change, Your Mileage May Vary.

My recommendation about system tuning, by swapping tubes, wires, isolation devices, et al, is to hope for success, but be prepared for failure, and accept that any loss you experience after re-selling the unwanted power cord/interconnects/sorbothane footer/etc. is the cost of tuition for your latest semester in your course in System Building. If you buy used, and sell used, you might even be revenue-neutral. HOORAY!

Along the way, you learn a lot about gear, and, more importantly, your own preferences. This helps you to be better able to apply the advice of others, what to accept, what to modify, and what to discard, based on what you learn about their experiences, and reports, relative to your own preferences.

First Rule of System Building: KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

 

[pitabread]

I do keep an open mind, however we have concluded that the difference heard in bi wiring is system dependent, I am sure we can, if we put all our collective knowledge together , come up with the reason why some systems are more susceptible to others with bi wiring.
So why dont the people building speakers , amps etc give us some figures to go by?

Two reasons my suspicious mind can think off, 1. some manufacturers will develop lets say speakers with bi wiring capabilities even though it wont make a button of difference just to stay in the market, 2. they just dont want to as this would effect box swapping if we knew more about how to purchase a new box without or at least limiting the gamble of trial and error.

For instance, a £750 pair of nice speakers that can be bi wired, does the blurb that comes with them indicate what kind of amplification would be best to hear any sonic improvements due to bi wiring?

I would just like to see less guess work and less trial and most importantly less error involved in buying audio gear.
One of the reasons why all my equipment comes from the same manufacturer, I'm not clued up enough to know what will work with what, I think I am in the same boat as quite a few people.

 

[mikeybc]

I always thought the main reason of bi wiring was to prevent any "back EMF" generated by residual motion of the woofer from getting into the tweeter section of the crossover. In theory it should be better but the debate is wether its audible. The debate will never end.

 

[pitabread]

I always thought the main reason of bi wiring was to prevent any "back EMF" generated by residual motion of the woofer from getting into the tweeter section of the crossover. In theory it should be better but the debate is wether its audible. The debate will never end.

I wasnt aware that it could , can it?

 

[shelly_d]

See thats the thing, a lot of people dont have the cable so they go out and spend hard earned on it only to find out it didnt work.

I dont believe in magic, I believe that this works for some and not for others, I also believe that manufacturers could at least tell us what equipment would benefit and what equipment wont.

For the industry (media, manufacturers, suppliers) to allow people to upgrade on the basis that it ''might'' work because its basically black magic without giving any solid basis on which a decision can be made is a tad outrageous dont you think? Thank goodness we have these forums.

The issue with the manufacturers giving us the straight skinny is that many times they won't. If they decide their equipment won't benefit from bi-wiring and say so, they loose as customers those customers who think that bi-wiring is the cat's meow. So they won't do that.

If you want to try bi-wiring at low cost, use some large gauge zip cord for both runs. (Maybe 12 or 14 gauge wire). If you hear a difference between 1 run of wire and 2 then you can decide if it is worth investing is whatever wire of choice you want to use.

Shelly_D

 

[pitabread]

The issue with the manufacturers giving us the straight skinny is that many times they won't. If they decide their equipment won't benefit from bi-wiring and say so, they loose as customers those customers who think that bi-wiring is the cat's meow. So they won't do that.

If you want to try bi-wiring at low cost, use some large gauge zip cord for both runs. (Maybe 12 or 14 gauge wire). If you hear a difference between 1 run of wire and 2 then you can decide if it is worth investing is whatever wire of choice you want to use.

Shelly_D

Shelly your signature caught my attention,if you dont mind me asking how does ofc suffocate the sound?

Edit - bugger, the penny just dropped, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today.

 

[mikeybc]

I wasnt aware that it could , can it?

A conductor (voice coil ) moving through a magnetic field will generate voltage, so any uncontrolled motion of the woofer cone (overhang) can generate a voltage back into the crossover albeit not a lot, biwiring keeps the tweeter section clear of this woofer generated voltage...at least that's the way I understand it. I may be wrong too.

 

[pitabread]

A conductor (voice coil ) moving through a magnetic field will generate voltage, so any uncontrolled motion of the woofer cone (overhang) can generate back voltage back into the crossover albeit not a lot, biwiring keeps the tweeter section clear of this woofer generated voltage...at least that's the way I understand it. I may be wrong too.

I did read all about this last week so I'm fully or at least partly aware of the voltage generated by the speakers movement, this is necessary for the speaker to work and from what I read it ends up at the amp, I didnt think it could pollute the incoming signal, or I didnt read anything about it. Interesting.

 

[mikeybc]

I didnt think it could pollute the incoming signal, or I didnt read anything about it. Interesting.

This is where the debate is I think, I remember reading a discussion on another forum about it, personally I don't think it's an issue, a series crossover can't be biwired, and there are a few good speakers using this design. I feel interconnects are more important than biwiring but I'm not gonna get into that can if worms either.

 

[ev13wt]

^^ Yea, but it would run back to amp and the through the tweeter wire and end up at the tweeter network anyways?

 

[pitabread]

^^ Yea, but it would run back to amp and the through the tweeter wire and end up at the tweeter network anyways?

Nope, from what I read it runs back to the amp and discharges, or the amp or any amp for that matter is designed to deal with it. But I see what you mean , personally I dont think its an issue either.

 

[luvvinvinyl]

Not really "black magic", or "malarkey". It's subjective. IOW, a matter of opinion.

Hypothetical situation:

Take a given system, in a given room. The only variable is the listener. Listener A hears a difference between bi-wired and not bi-wired. Listener B hears no difference between bi-wired, with the same pairs of wire, and not bi-wired.

Who's right? Both are right.

Now, let's run the test again, only, this time, let's change up the wire, to something different from the first one. Silver, larger, smaller, solid-core vs stranded, even just different manufacturer, but, somehow, it's something different from the first one. Now Listener A hears no difference between bi-wired and not, but Listener B does. Again, who's right? Again, both are right.

You can extend this to changing any piece of gear, or the same system in two different rooms, or just change pairs of listeners. The results are still the same. Each one is right about what they hear.

What can you predict about individual response to one or another change in a system?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Manufacturers make make "recommendations" about the 'probable' results you may experience with certain changes, but they know that they cannot make any specific guarantees that will apply to all users.

So, even though several people report a certain change gives certain results, when you make the change, Your Mileage May Vary.

My recommendation about system tuning, by swapping tubes, wires, isolation devices, et al, is to hope for success, but be prepared for failure, and accept that any loss you experience after re-selling the unwanted power cord/interconnects/sorbothane footer/etc. is the cost of tuition for your latest semester in your course in System Building. If you buy used, and sell used, you might even be revenue-neutral. HOORAY!

Along the way, you learn a lot about gear, and, more importantly, your own preferences. This helps you to be better able to apply the advice of others, what to accept, what to modify, and what to discard, based on what you learn about their experiences, and reports, relative to your own preferences.

First Rule of System Building: KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

I do keep an open mind, however we have concluded that the difference heard in bi wiring is system dependent, I am sure we can, if we put all our collective knowledge together , come up with the reason why some systems are more susceptible to others with bi wiring.
So why dont the people building speakers , amps etc give us some figures to go by?

Two reasons my suspicious mind can think off, 1. some manufacturers will develop lets say speakers with bi wiring capabilities even though it wont make a button of difference just to stay in the market, 2. they just dont want to as this would effect box swapping if we knew more about how to purchase a new box without or at least limiting the gamble of trial and error.

For instance, a £750 pair of nice speakers that can be bi wired, does the blurb that comes with them indicate what kind of amplification would be best to hear any sonic improvements due to bi wiring?

I would just like to see less guess work and less trial and most importantly less error involved in buying audio gear.
One of the reasons why all my equipment comes from the same manufacturer, I'm not clued up enough to know what will work with what, I think I am in the same boat as quite a few people.

I see you just dismissed the whole point of my post.

For the record, "WE" have not concluded any such thing. "You" may have done so. For me, and many whose opinions I respect, any audible benefits are PARTIALLY system-dependent. These self-same audible benefits are also, and this is critical, LISTENER-dependent.

By casting aside that facet of the discussion, you have relegated this to trying to predict the results solely by numbers, topography, and the like. If your preferences run parallel to the median, you can expect a fairly high degree of correlation and, FOR YOU, a somewhat reliable predictor, the thing you seek. If your tastes don't run to the middle of the normal distribution, you will be frustrated by your attempts to objectify this operation. It may well become an exercise in futility.

I wish you well in your quest.

I'm out of this one, too.

 

[goldear]

I wasnt aware that it could , can it?

Yes it can. But the effect is small. The exact same principles which I described on pages 2 and 3 still apply in this situation.

 

[Bigerik]

The issue with the manufacturers giving us the straight skinny is that many times they won't. If they decide their equipment won't benefit from bi-wiring and say so, they loose as customers those customers who think that bi-wiring is the cat's meow. So they won't do that.

If you want to try bi-wiring at low cost, use some large gauge zip cord for both runs. (Maybe 12 or 14 gauge wire). If you hear a difference between 1 run of wire and 2 then you can decide if it is worth investing is whatever wire of choice you want to use.

Shelly_D

Yet, IIRC, you seem to be very willing to quote manufacturers specs, which are just more marketing material.

 

[Bigerik]

See thats the thing, a lot of people dont have the cable so they go out and spend hard earned on it only to find out it didnt work.

I dont believe in magic, I believe that this works for some and not for others, I also believe that manufacturers could at least tell us what equipment would benefit and what equipment wont.

For the industry (media, manufacturers, suppliers) to allow people to upgrade on the basis that it ''might'' work because its basically black magic without giving any solid basis on which a decision can be made is a tad outrageous dont you think? Thank goodness we have these forums.

There are about a thousand different ways to try cable In your system without making any kind of financial commitment to it. In fact, there is no part of an audio system that is easier and cheaper to "try before you buy".

 

[shelly_d]

Yet, IIRC, you seem to be very willing to quote manufacturers specs, which are just more marketing material.

Specs can be independently verified by test measurements. Claims about air, subtlety etc cannot.

When they lie about specs, you cannot trust anything they say.

shelly_d

 

[Bigerik]

Specs can be independently verified by test measurements. Claims about air, subtlety etc cannot.

When they lie about specs, you cannot trust anything they say.

shelly_d

What if the lie about sound? They used to tell big fibs about the importance of THD, and while their numbers were verifiable, the THD war turned out to be a total crock.

 

[Pandovski]

Specs can be independently verified by test measurements. Claims about air, subtlety etc cannot.

When they lie about specs, you cannot trust anything they say.

shelly_d

Some people practice this hobby like wine tasting and some like carpentering. The first bunch would rather read metaphors than chemistry lessons about their wine tasting. The later bunch enjoys reading specs and performance comparisons how chrome-vanadium is better than tempered steel for this or that knife etc.

Marketing wizards will get our disposable income either way, with magic wine metaphors or with super powerful tools spec talk. Why? Because we want to give it to them, thus the attribute disposable.

So nobody wins and nobody looses really. The two camps have occasional conflicts but we can't ignore the fact we are the opposite ends of the same body. Most of us are stuck in the middle.

 

[pitabread]

I see you just dismissed the whole point of my post.

For the record, "WE" have not concluded any such thing. "You" may have done so. For me, and many whose opinions I respect, any audible benefits are PARTIALLY system-dependent. These self-same audible benefits are also, and this is critical, LISTENER-dependent.

By casting aside that facet of the discussion, you have relegated this to trying to predict the results solely by numbers, topography, and the like. If your preferences run parallel to the median, you can expect a fairly high degree of correlation and, FOR YOU, a somewhat reliable predictor, the thing you seek. If your tastes don't run to the middle of the normal distribution, you will be frustrated by your attempts to objectify this operation. It may well become an exercise in futility.

I wish you well in your quest.

I'm out of this one, too.

Sorry , my bad , I should have worded it better. So lets just say for argument sake we are only talking about those individuals who are capable of hearing such a change.
My whole point is that where the system is concerned, because I do believe it to be system dependent if you only judge it by those who can hear it, am I making sense?
Anyway, if that sound difference is effected by the amplifiers design why not include such information to the purchaser?

Now the problem of it being person related, there must be a physical reason for this? Although I doubt manufacturers will tell you that you may not hear any kind of quality from their products if your hearing isnt up to scratch.

 

[pitabread]

There are about a thousand different ways to try cable In your system without making any kind of financial commitment to it. In fact, there is no part of an audio system that is easier and cheaper to "try before you buy".

Indeed, but my point is if you already have an expensive set of cables, some might have to buy a second set just to try bi wiring. Its all a bit of an arse if it doesn't work and you have to sell them on again.
Wouldn't it be nice to know for sure first?
I know the old saying ''you'll never know until you try'' is true in this instance but it's very annoying because I believe there is so much more manufacturers could tell us about compatibility.
Unless they already do and I just dont understand it.