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Big expensive quality amplifier market dead?

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Thanks, @OldJBL.

I think my takeaway from the gestalt of the whole thread so far is that, for buyers of newer gear, repairability is mostly not on the radar. And maybe I should add, I don't think that's irrational at all.

I'm going to try to stop myself from musing too much about the next few decades, but I wouldn't be shocked if repairs of now-current gear become an area of interest for a passionate few. SMD will not be an obstacle, at least for younger techs. And maybe those techs should invest, now, in a cache of TPA3255s. And maybe op amps in currently-fashionable packages. Oh, and print out datasheets for same - my guess is that those will be as close to you can get to service information.
It's not so much SMD in itself being the major obstacle, though certainly more difficult to work with than through hole. The obstacle is a combination of SMD, multilayer, double sided boards, coupled with a lack of schematics/service documents.
 
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What, no Threshold, Pass Labs, Rowland or Leviinson? The transformers alone should be worth some money, eh? ;)

Was scrolling through amp listings on ebay today and noticed that shipping charges for many of the larger models ranged from $75-150+. That's price to ship one way. So, imagine shipping your Big Iron amp to a repair technician who has agreed to service your boutique ear-killer. You're looking at $150-300+ just to cover shipping. Yikes.
 
Was scrolling through amp listings on ebay today and noticed that shipping charges for many of the larger models ranged from $75-150+. That's price to ship one way. So, imagine shipping your Big Iron amp to a repair technician who has agreed to service your boutique ear-killer. You're looking at $150-300+ just to cover shipping. Yikes.
Actually, I think you’re probably being conservative. I recall the seller in my last amplifier purchase complaining about sticker shock. It was over $200, IIRC.
 
I would say that 100% of the reason I switched to a pair of Fosi ZA3 amps and a ZD3 DAC over my vintage components was for better sound quality. The smaller size, lower price and freedom from dealing with repair hassles are just perks coming my decision. Before this, I was somewhat of a "vintage snob" and close minded regarding other options. It is coming up on two years since I switched to the ZA3s and I haven't had a single urge to switch back to my vintage NAD and Denon components. One area I will not go to smaller, newer options is with speakers. I like the older ones I currently use and will only swap them for something newer and smaller when I am forced to do so for some reason. One thing I know is that the older I get, the more I am going to appreciate having very much smaller and lighter gear to deal with. Not giving up sound quality in return is a real blessing.
Those are all personal decisions which I can't take issue with. The hobby is about enjoying music - so whatever gets you there is what I'm for. I even embrace the guy with a Victrola suitcase record player who buys $30 records for it to rip up - if that's what they enjoy, more power to them.

Where I continually take issue with this push to discard legacy gear in favor of newer and better is that I've yet to find better. This landfill twist is just a silly grasp to support an opinion which few subscribe to. If 90% of enthusiasts bought into the fact that cheap, disposable goods were the answer to well . . . anything . . , there would be no industry to turn your nose up at. Fortunately, our diatribes here represent .0001% of the audio business and not one single sensible manufacture should look here as a barometer.
 
The radial capacitors look easy enough to replace but what about the surface mount components, are they easy to replace? Are the chips "off-the-shelf" or are they proprietary?

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If you seriously believe a device as this one can best a well designed Class AB power amplifier from the likes of Bryston or McIntosh then you owe it to yourself to prove that. I'm happy to define the guidelines for anyone that desires to do so and I'll even tell you how to build the switching unit that will allow you to do so blindly from the comfort of your listening position. It's really not all that hard and you'll learn a ton in the process. I guarantee it.
 
It's not so much SMD in itself being the major obstacle, though certainly more difficult to work with than through hole. The obstacle is a combination of SMD, multilayer, double sided boards, coupled with a lack of schematics/service documents.

And add the fact, that a lot of these newer SMD and other similar components, have a MUCH shorter service production life, than older components had/have.

I've seen 5 year old components condemned, because the parts were no longer made. Happens an appalling percentage of the time in the pro-audio industry (more often in the lower-end "pro-sumer" side of it- but sometimes, even for very expensive gear).

That, combined with an increased tendency for manufacturers to not be willing to issue service documents to even long-standing, verifiably legitimate repair agencies- and forget about fixing a lot of this newer stuff.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I think the biggest issue with servicing modern gear is the lack of spare microcontrollers and FPGAs that are programmed with the required code. If you don't have the code, having an unprogrammed spare part doesn't help much. OTOH, it probably doesn't require a degree in rocket science to write code that will drive an attenuator and input switching. But such a feat would be a labor of love and you couldn't afford to pay someone to do it.
 
Was scrolling through amp listings on ebay today and noticed that shipping charges for many of the larger models ranged from $75-150+. That's price to ship one way. So, imagine shipping your Big Iron amp to a repair technician who has agreed to service your boutique ear-killer. You're looking at $150-300+ just to cover shipping. Yikes.
Bingo! That's exactly why I stopped selling whole speakers on line years ago. It used to cost $40/carton to ship something like a Large Advent ot JBL 4311 to the West Coast from Detroit. Now it's probably over $100/carton.
 
Those are all personal decisions which I can't take issue with. The hobby is about enjoying music - so whatever gets you there is what I'm for. I even embrace the guy with a Victrola suitcase record player who buys $30 records for it to rip up - if that's what they enjoy, more power to them.

Where I continually take issue with this push to discard legacy gear in favor of newer and better is that I've yet to find better. This landfill twist is just a silly grasp to support an opinion which few subscribe to. If 90% of enthusiasts bought into the fact that cheap, disposable goods were the answer to well . . . anything . . , there would be no industry to turn your nose up at. Fortunately, our diatribes here represent .0001% of the audio business and not one single sensible manufacture should look here as a barometer.
IMHO, I think one has to listen to these newer budget class D amps to understand the reason why many people are finding them to be a viable alternative to conventional/vintage gear. I bought my first ZA3 out of pure curiosity expecting to insert it into my 2.0 system for a day or two and then put my NAD Monitor Series receiver back into its rightful place. After initially listening to it, I was pretty shocked at how good it sounded to the point I questioned my own ears. It took me two weeks to come to grips with how good it sounds. The best way I can describe it is the ZA3 does its job transparently without adding any embellishments. The soundstage, separation, depth, clarity, dead silence, imaging, etc. are very good. I am not saying everyone will like these amps. Just that they are punching way above their weight class (no pun intended).

With the above said, I do feel that the ZA3 does have a limit of around 90-95db before things start to go south from a sound quality aspect in my system. This doesn't bother me because I never have liked listening at levels over 80-85db. This might not be the case for amps that now have PFFB, or similar, capability. Where I think these amps fit in nicely is for those who can't afford, or want to deal with, the frustrations that come with using older components. For me, the ZA3 just sounds better than my older stuff. Adding in the Fosi ZD3 DAC and adding in a linear, regulated power supply for it further enhanced its performance. Fosi isn't the only company making good products in this genre. Plus, it isn't a huge outlay to buy one of these class D amps to test out so experimenting with them is easy to do for those that are curious. Lastly, I will say that other conventional audio makers should take note of these new products because the companies putting them out are being very aggressive with improving them. They won't put the established brands out of business, however this said, there is a very good chance that they will take a fairly good portion of their medium tier market segment in the not too distant future.
 
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I just finished listening to an album with a 30foot wide soundstage about 15 feet deep. The hair on my arms and back were standing up. All from a power amp discontinued in '96 which I have owned about ten years now. Said amp weighs 130lbs and ended my quest for a better one.

I'm good thanks.
 
I just finished listening to an album with a 30foot wide soundstage about 15 feet deep. The hair on my arms and back were standing up. All from a power amp discontinued in '96 which I have owned about ten years now. Said amp weighs 130lbs and ended my quest for a better one.

I'm good thanks.
It is good to to reach your endgame. Most don't.
 
Actually, I think you’re probably being conservative. I recall the seller in my last amplifier purchase complaining about sticker shock. It was over $200, IIRC.
I recently paid $210 to ship my Parasound A21+ from ABQ to Denver for repair (the amp & boxes weighed in at 88 lbs).
 
It is good to to reach your endgame. Most don't.
But reaching the endgame also means the hunt is now over and there goes a lot of the fun. My little Fosi's scratch that itch as I can play the game of the great sounding mini rig that won't break the bank. That beats shelves full of heavyweight Mac gear (all of it needing something) that will break the bank and the spirit of the chase.
 
Once again I find myself wondering what is meant about newer gear having some advantage vis-a-vis repairs. Some sincere questions (which of course you don't have any obligation whatsoever to respond to :))

Is your expectation that newer gear will not need repairs during your ownership? Or that it will be hassle-free to get it repaired? Or that it's disposable, and if it fails, you'll simply replace it?
The vintage receivers and amps from the 70’s, that youse old heads fawn over incessantly, are by now all in need of extensive repairs to replace their electrolytic capacitors, that have exceeded their use-by dates by nearly 20 years. On the other hand, a quality new class d amp should not require similar capacitor replacements for at least 20 years. This is the crux of what is being discussed when we tout the reliability of class d, which incidentally, typically also run at lower temperatures and are therefore less affected by heat related stresses incurred by class a and class a/b gear.
 
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I recently paid $210 to ship my Parasound A21+ from ABQ to Denver for repair (the amp & boxes weighed in at 88 lbs).
I think that the Rowland model 10 is about 65 lbs shipping weight. I can’t imagine shipping a Rowland model 5. That beast weighs 120 lbs I believe. :oops:
 
On the other hand, a quality new class d amp should not require similar capacitor replacements for at least 20 years.

You don't need as old a head as mine to remember capacitor plague.

(Added a bit later, to try to explain what I mean instead of just to try for a laugh:) Predictable component longevity is undoubtedly less of an issue for newer equipment. But unpredictable premature component failures (like capacitor plague), though typically rare, can be expected to still crop up occasionally. If that happens, will it be less of a hassle to get the newer equipment repaired? I very much doubt it.
 
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If you seriously believe a device as this one can best a well designed Class AB power amplifier from the likes of Bryston or McIntosh then you owe it to yourself to prove that. I'm happy to define the guidelines for anyone that desires to do so and I'll even tell you how to build the switching unit that will allow you to do so blindly from the comfort of your listening position. It's really not all that hard and you'll learn a ton in the process. I guarantee it.

I'm not a honk for ASR but objective testing has shown the Fosi V3 Monos to perform among the best amplifiers ever produced. Yes, that is a fact. Load independent, solid and capable down to 2 ohms, a solid 120wpc/8 ohms and 230wpc/4 ohms at <1% THD. Signal-to-noise among the best amps ever tested. These TPA3255 amps that employ PFFB are not only capable, they perform better than most any Class A or Class AB amps ever produced. You may be heavily invested in Big Iron, or simply struggling with the facts of modern amplification, but your assertions about these little wonders not being able to hang with the old stuff are simply wrong.

It's a free world. By all means the older users will continue to be attracted to the old, big, heavy gear. It's ingrained in many of us, me included. I get all warm and fuzzy inside when I see pictures of old Marantz receivers. I remember that gear fondly from my younger years. That doesn't change the fact that the TPA3255/PFFB amps coming from Fosi, Aiyima and Douk are incredible performers available for previously unthinkable prices. They are disrupting the market for amplification. The good news for the olds is that the Big Iron may become more widely available at Goodwill prices before too much longer. The highest value pieces from McIntosh, Pass and (old) Marantz will remain fashionable until the olds all die, and even then there will remain a nostalgia market for well-heeled hipsters.

For the rest of us, there is high performance, dirt cheap, disposable amplification that greatly increases availability of great sound. For me it's a revelation and as I see it we all win. The only potential losers are those who buy and sell Big Iron amps and see a threat to their ability to charge increasingly higher prices for same. If that were me I'd be worried. Otherwise, who would feel threatened by availability of great performance for pennies on the amplification dollar?
 
I'm not a honk for ASR but objective testing has shown the Fosi V3 Monos to perform among the best amplifiers ever produced. Yes, that is a fact. Load independent, solid and capable down to 2 ohms, a solid 120wpc/8 ohms and 230wpc/4 ohms at <1% THD. Signal-to-noise among the best amps ever tested.<<snip>>
Okay, one of my amps is rated at .005%THD from 100mW to beyond its 600WPC rated output both channels driven, S/N -124dBA, can drive loads below 2 Ohms, and is now 20 years old.

Where does this 240WPC at <1% THD compare to “the best amplifiers ever produced”? 1% is 200x the distortion, and that’s possibly only at its rated 230W output and much higher at lower power
(that important first watt).

I’m a fan of newer equipment, and feel that these little chip amps have their place, I’m not opposed to having one in the garage, for background music in my office, I frequently use a small JBL bluetooth portable because music is music, … but I also love having very accurate and dynamic music in other applications. I’d be surprised if my expensive Burmester car audio system is anything other than a pure Class D system for example but with maybe 70dBA of ambient noise in most cars S/N is not a terribly useful spec.

To each his own, a butt for every seat as they say and there’s nothing wrong with either (or both) approaches, but I will not believe that these Fosi amps are equal, but they might very well be good enough.
 
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Okay, one of my amps is rated at .005%THD from 100mW to beyond its 600WPC rated output both channels driven, S/N -124dBA, can drive loads below 2 Ohms, and is now 20 years old.

Where does this 240WPC at <1% THD compare to “the best amplifiers ever produced”? 1% is 200x the distortion, and that’s possibly only at its rated 230W output and much higher at lower power
(that important first watt).

I’m a fan of newer equipment, and feel that these little chip amps have their place, I’m not opposed to having one in the garage, for background music in my office, I frequently use a small JBL bluetooth portable because music is music, … but I also love having very accurate and dynamic music in other applications. I’d be surprised if my expensive Burmester car audio system is anything other than a pure Class D system for example but with maybe 70dBA of ambient noise in most cars S/N is not a terribly useful spec.

To each his own, a butt for every seat as they say and there’s nothing wrong with either (or both) approaches, but I will not believe that these Fosi amps are equal, but they might very well be good enough.
I recently picked up a pair of the Fosi V3 mono amps (each with their own brick PS), and I pretty much agree with your assessment. They replaced a set of ASL Wave 8 monos which aren’t bad in their own right. While I’m not as enamored with the Fosi amps as some, I have to say they’re superior to the Wave 8s, and they’re quite adequate to my application. As you say, they’re good enough. For many people, they’re probably all they’ll ever need.
 
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