Cartridge and tonearm advice - diagnosing IGD issues

[rbphoto]

Hello good people!

I apologise if this topic comes up all the time, I admit that I am a newbie when it comes to vinyl and tonearm setup so I come seeking some advice. I'm reading and watching all I can on the topic and learning as I go.

I've recently acquired a turntable and started buying vinyl, but I feel like I'm not there in terms of quality playback. Now there are a few complications here already, in that the titles I'm buying are recent releases of mostly recent recordings, so that obviously generates a huge mixed bag in the quality of the pressings and mastering I'm working with. Some are quite clearly just inferior when compared to known vinyl references.

Anyway, here's the setup:

Deck: 1976 Yamaha YP-1000 II (recap completed)
Tonearm: Stax UA-7 with standard magnesium arm, Stax HS-7 headshell
Cartridge: Denon DL-110 with about 50 hours on it
Preamp: yamaha C-4 (refurbished, using mainly MC input but have tried MM and different loadings)

The problems I'm getting -

• high levels of surface noise and rumble
• very low tolerance of any off-centre pressings, sometimes a tearing sound with every revolution
• flat and lifeless sound (granted could be purely the pressings)

I began by setting up the tonearm and aligning the cartridge according to the Stax and Denon user manauls. I've since gone back and used the baerwald protractor to dial in the cartridge alignment, and experimented playing back problem records with a variety of VTF and anti-skate, which have a minimal impact sonically, more anti-skate and higher VTF up to 2 grams generally improving things.

So here's the basic question - is my cartridge just a dumb pairing with that tonearm? I'm new to vinyl so could have completely got this wrong, I opted for the DL-110 as it had a reputation for bang for buck and dealing well with surface noise and tracking well. I don't fully understand the relationship between cartridge compliance and tonearm mass and wondering if this is exacerbating my issues.

I have not added the Denon supplied weight to the headshell. Would this be recommended for this tonearm/cartridge pairing? Or should I switch cartridges?

Thank you and grateful for all hints and advice.

Cheers, Rick

 

[spark1]

Can I assume you are using a scale to measure and set tracking force? 2 grams is optimal with the Denon, in my experience.

Your post title refers to IGD, but it's contents do not. Are the problems you describe on inner grooves only?

Have you examined your stylus under magnification to assure no damage/debris?

Are you confident in your use of the protractor? A grossly bad alignment could cause symptoms like some that you are having.

If you haven't tried it yet, set tracking force at 2grams and bias (antiskate) at zero.

Rumble is usually a function of motor/mechanical noise/vibration.

The symptoms you describe indicate something is significantly wrong...vs a small adjustment issue.

I am only vaguely familiar with your tonearm, so have no comments about cartridge matching for it. I am sure others with expertise regarding this arm will chime in soon.

 

[rbphoto]

Hi Spark1, thanks for your reply.

Can I assume you are using a scale to measure and set tracking force? 2 grams is optimal with the Denon, in my experience.

I haven't yet bought a scale, but I've experimented enough with different VTF that I feel like it's optimal at 1.5-2 grams on the counterweight scale.

Your post title refers to IGD, but it's contents do not. Are the problems you describe on inner grooves only?

They are certainly more likely to occur in the last third of a side, yes.

Have you examined your stylus under magnification to assure no damage/debris?

No - good idea, I'll see what I can do to check this.

Are you confident in your use of the protractor? A grossly bad alignment could cause symptoms like some that you are having.

Fiarly confident - I couldn't get the offset angle dead on at both points due to the headshell design, but it's very close. I optimised it for the inner point.

If you haven't tried it yet, set tracking force at 2grams and bias (antiskate) at zero.

I have tried that combo, it didn't solve the issues on discs I'm struggling with unfortunately.

Rumble is usually a function of motor/mechanical noise/vibration.

Ok that makes sense. It's just that some pressings have it, others are pretty near silent.

The symptoms you describe indicate something is significantly wrong...vs a small adjustment issue

Yeah agreed! Some records are borderline unlistenable. And again this could be the provenance of the pressings, it's just I don't want to have to abandon buying the titles I want on vinyl unless it's really just the way it is with quality in 2022.

 

[Bicyclist]

I sincerely doubt your pressings are all that bad. Ive bought a few new records and had great luck with them. Just guessing from this distance I'd say the stylus is an issue or the weight is not properly dialed in. I do hear a little rumble on some pressings but it's usually pretty far down.

 

[rbphoto]

I certainly hope it's my setup. It's just such a mixed bag, I'd say 20% of the titles I've bought recently (about 100 indie, alternative, electronic, rock titles from 2000's to very recent, no picture discs, minimal colored vinyl) are barely suitable for background music at present, and over 50% just don't do anything for me over streamed sources. Some records though have wowed me already - Nils Frahm, Belle and Sebastian reissues to name a few.

 

[spark1]

Hi Spark1, thanks for your reply.



I haven't yet bought a scale, but I've experimented enough with different VTF that I feel like it's optimal at 1.5-2 grams on the counterweight scale.



They are certainly more likely to occur in the last third of a side, yes.



No - good idea, I'll see what I can do to check this.



Fiarly confident - I couldn't get the offset angle dead on at both points due to the headshell design, but it's very close. I optimised it for the inner point.



I have tried that combo, it didn't solve the issues on discs I'm struggling with unfortunately.



Ok that makes sense. It's just that some pressings have it, others are pretty near silent.



Yeah agreed! Some records are borderline unlistenable. And again this could be the provenance of the pressings, it's just I don't want to have to abandon buying the titles I want on vinyl unless it's really just the way it is with quality in 2022.

I don't know that arm, but if it has a tracking force gauge it must be calibrated to zero...normally by attaining neutral force, which occurs when the arm "floats".

Once this is achieved, put arm in its rest, hold the counterweight in place and turn the gauge to zero (don't let the counterweight turn). Now it's calibrated. From there, turn the counterweight so the gauge indicates desired tracking force...gauge should turn with the counterweight.

You've probably already done this, but just wanted to be sure. 1.5 seems light for that Denon cart?

 

[Luicas]

Preamp: yamaha C-4 (refurbished, using mainly MC input but have tried MM and different loadings)

Hi Rick, the DL-110 is a high output (HO)MC and needs an MM input (47kohm and 36 to 43 db gain). Do not plug your TT into an MC input while using the DL-110. This is very very important.

Also, all these records you’ve bought, are they brand new? Or second hand?

cheers,
Luis

 

[spark1]

If you cue up the tonearm at middle of record, then drop the cueing lever, does the arm appear to drop straight down?

Also (assuming it has cueing!), are you sure the arm clears the lift bar across the entire record?

 

[tnsilver]

I couldn't get the offset angle dead on at both points due to the headshell design, but it's very close. I optimised it for the inner point.

I'm nearly certain most of the problems described are geometry related. The DL-110 should mate well with the UA-7. However, the way you describe the alignment routine and the terminology used sounds to me like you need help from an experienced enthusiast to help you choose the right protractor and show you how to use it. If you post your location you may find an AK'er nearby, willing to help.

 

[Bicyclist]

If you cue up the tonearm at middle of record, then drop the cueing lever, does the arm appear to drop straight down?

Also (assuming it has cueing!), are you sure the arm clears the lift bar across the entire record?

That is a very salient question!

 

[rbphoto]

I don't know that arm, but if it has a tracking force gauge it must be calibrated to zero...normally by attaining neutral force, which occurs when the arm "floats".

Once this is achieved, put arm in its rest, hold the counterweight in place and turn the gauge to zero (don't let the counterweight turn). Now it's calibrated. From there, turn the counterweight so the gauge indicates desired tracking force...gauge should turn with the counterweight.

You've probably already done this, but just wanted to be sure. 1.5 seems light for that Denon cart?

Thank you, yes this has been zeroed according to that method, I suppose I should invest in a stylus force gauge to double check it.

Hi Rick, the DL-110 is a high output (HO)MC and needs an MM input (47kohm and 36 to 43 db gain). Do not plug your TT into an MC input while using the DL-110. This is very very important.

Also, all these records you’ve bought, are they brand new? Or second hand?

cheers,
Luis

Thanks Luis, I'm certain the C-4 MC input can handle the DL-110's output, I have also tried the MM inputs with various loadings. There are subjective differences but nothing that addresses the problems I'm having.

yes, these are all new records.

If you cue up the tonearm at middle of record, then drop the cueing lever, does the arm appear to drop straight down?

Also (assuming it has cueing!), are you sure the arm clears the lift bar across the entire record?

Hi spark1, the tonearm drops straight with 0 or middle bias settings, but then slants outward on maximum bias setting, so this appears right?

That's a good point about the cueing mechanism, just checked, it clears.

I'm nearly certain most of the problems described are geometry related. The DL-110 should mate well with the UA-7. However, the way you describe the alignment routine and the terminology used sounds to me like you need help from an experienced enthusiast to help you choose the right protractor and show you how to use it. If you post your location you may find an AK'er nearby, willing to help.

Hi tnsilver, yes, this could all easily be the result of my inexperience! I'd love some expert help, heck I'd even pay for it in beverages of choice. I'm in Melbourne, Australia.

 

[spark1]

Someone experienced in set up may well be of help, but nothing in your description of your process strikes me as unusual.

Sounds like you used a 2-point Baerwald protractor. If you downloaded and printed it, you do need to assure that it printed at correct scale, but I get the impression you are meticulous so are unlikely to have missed this detail.

 

[rbphoto]

Someone experienced in set up may well be of help, but nothing in your description of your process strikes me as unusual.

Sounds like you used a 2-point Baerwald protractor. If you downloaded and printed it, you do need to assure that it printed at correct scale, but I get the impression you are meticulous so are unlikely to have missed this detail.

Yep, that's the one I used. Good call, I did check that, scaled it at 100.3% in adobe acrobat and verified it with mitutoyo vernier calipers to be spot-on and punched the spindle hole very carefully.

 

[T68]

If you have another cartridge to try maybe that could be one part of the trouble shooting. If another cartridge works well it indicates something's upwith the Denon and/or its mounting and tonearm matching.
If the problem persists it may be something with the tonearm. Bad bearing, antiskate mech or something else.

 

[rbphoto]

If you have another cartridge to try maybe that could be one part of the trouble shooting. If another cartridge works well it indicates something's upwith the Denon and/or its mounting and tonearm matching.
If the problem persists it may be something with the tonearm. Bad bearing, antiskate mech or something else.

I have a Grace F-9 currently with a generic stylus, and a spare Soundsmith stylus for it. It's currently mounted on a Micro Seiki headshell, which I did swap over just as a test - same issues. But, I didn't bother to mount it on the Stax headshell or align it properly, I suppose I should try that before looking closely at the tonearm for faults.

 

[doctor fuse]

It's just that some pressings have it, others are pretty near silent.

Some records have rumble baked right into the grooves. I could be this, as it is intermittent.

Have you tried realigning? I would be more demanding about getting the outer null point as good as the inner one.

 

[rbphoto]

OK so this is interesting… I started reading up about cartridge compliance, tonearm effective mass and resonance - but I far from understand it fully at this point.

anyway, both Ortofon’s page and vinylengine suggested the arm effective mass is too low for the DL-110.

Data according to internet’s known values -

DL-110 mass 5 gram (6gram with screws?)
Stax UA-7 effective mass 16 gram (does this include headshell if it’s quoted internet consensus?)
DL-110 dynamic compliance 8 x10-6 cm/dyne at 100hz

This seems to suggest the combined resonance is 12hz, not ideal, and I want to ideally double the tonearm effective mass.

Just as a test I sat the Denon weight (1.4 gram) on a silicone o-ring on top of the headshell, rebalanced the arm to 1.9 gram VTF and played a record I hadn’t been impressed with.

Wow - instant improvement to levels of surface noise intrusion, soundstage dimensionality, resolution, low end weight… the works. Just way better.

Where should I go from here?

 

[Crab33]

The DL-110 dynamic compliance is quoted as 8cu at 100Hz (which is common for Japanese cartridges). You need to convert this to a value at 10Hz (as used in the rest of the world) if you have been using the Vinyl Engine resonance calculator. There is a fudge-factor of about 1.75 to do the conversion (although it is regarded as 'rough and ready'), which makes the DL-110's compliance more like 14cu. This gives a resonance frequency with your arm of 9Hz, which is good.

This cartridge is medium-compliance and your 16g arm is medium-mass, so there should be no mismatch. I use the DL-110 on a Rega R200 arm which has about the same effective-mass and the combination works a treat. I use a tracking force of 1.8g.

Have you looked at the tracking angle? If the cartridge is tail-up, this brightens the balance and can cause surface noise (and probably other undesirables) to be accentuated.

 

[spark1]

OK so this is interesting… I started reading up about cartridge compliance, tonearm effective mass and resonance - but I far from understand it fully at this point.

anyway, both Ortofon’s page and vinylengine suggested the arm effective mass is too low for the DL-110.

Data according to internet’s known values -

DL-110 mass 5 gram (6gram with screws?)
Stax UA-7 effective mass 16 gram (does this include headshell if it’s quoted internet consensus?)
DL-110 dynamic compliance 8 x10-6 cm/dyne at 100hz

This seems to suggest the combined resonance is 12hz, not ideal, and I want to ideally double the tonearm effective mass.

Just as a test I sat the Denon weight (1.4 gram) on a silicone o-ring on top of the headshell, rebalanced the arm to 1.9 gram VTF and played a record I hadn’t been impressed with.

Wow - instant improvement to levels of surface noise intrusion, soundstage dimensionality, resolution, low end weight… the works. Just way better.

Where should I go from here?

If it really does solve the problems you are having, install the weight and run at 1.9 grams. No reason I can think of not to.

 

[Bicyclist]

Many years ago I had a cheap project one turntable. It had a very light arm and stiff feet. I added a lot of weight to the base and a small weight to the headshell so my grado cartridge would work with it. When I was done the table was much stabler and the cart would track at the recommended stylus pressure. I had no clue what I was doing but I also had no money and wanted my turntable to work and watching the stylus it just seemed it was too stiff for the arm. I'm not sure if any of this applies to you and you are working with better equipment but take it for what it's worth.