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Cartridge and tonearm advice - diagnosing IGD issues

rbphoto said:
when I dial in 1.9 grams of VTF and compare the movement, it’s quite rigid and self-braked, particularly in horizontal plane.
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Sounds like it's rubbing on the cue bar. That's what happens when you dial in VTF. The arm ceases to float and the tip side wants to drop to the record surface. When the lift lever is up, the only thing standing between the tip and the record surface is the cue bar meeting the armtube, otherwise you're ready to disco.
 
I had another go at video, using the end track on side A of Endtroducing 25th anniversary half speed master, the one that sounds like it’s clipping. This is what led me to call this IGD, as it creeps in during the last 5 min per side.

 
It actually sounds nice even with the youtube compression algorithm taking it's toll on the music. Considering that is one messed up piece of PVC, which is both wobbly and eccentric, that tonearm is doing pretty good. Look at the poor thing dancing left and right at the end of the record trying to keep up with the eccentric groove. It looks drunk! I wouldn't worry about that play in bearing. It looks reasonable for a unipivot and I see nothing wierd in the way it moves with VTF at 1.8g. In fact, I think it's looking cool and doing it's job. I'd go all the way up to 2.1g VTF for messed up records like this one. You could make good use of a record clamp BTW. Platter spins perfect!!
 
tnsilver said:
Sounds like it's rubbing on the cue bar. That's what happens when you dial in VTF. The arm ceases to float and the tip side wants to drop to the record surface. When the lift lever is up, the only thing standing between the tip and the record surface is the cue bar meeting the armtube, otherwise you're ready to disco.
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I asked about this earlier. OP says tonearm is fully clearing the lift bar.
 
Guess I'll drop out...looks like the conversation is starting to go in circles, and I don't seem to be adding any value.

Good luck with diagnosing and resolving your problems.
 
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spark1 said:
I asked about this earlier. OP says tonearm is fully clearing the lift bar.
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during playback, yes, absolutely. I suppose there is no other situation where it’s not interacting to put drag on the pivot bearing (if positive VTF is also applied).

spark1 said:
Guess I'll drop out...looks like the conversation is starting to go in circles
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this is a turntable forum, right? ;-) haha I’ll see myself out.

Thank you sincerely for your input spark1. I’ve learnt something from everyone that’s taken the time to reply, and when you’re just trying to get to grips with something, that’s priceless.
 
rbphoto said:
I had another go at video, using the end track on side A of Endtroducing 25th anniversary half speed master, the one that sounds like it’s clipping. This is what led me to call this IGD, as it creeps in during the last 5 min per side.

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Bad pressing. Both warped and off-center. Pitch fluctuations with that kind of thing will get worse towards the end of a side. Return and get another copy that is hopefully free of defects.
 
patient_ot said:
Bad pressing. Both warped and off-center. Pitch fluctuations with that kind of thing will get worse towards the end of a side. Return and get another copy that is hopefully free of defects.
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I agree that it’s a bad pressing. I’m not that concerned about pitch fluctuations, I’m concerned about the ‘clipping’ (don’t know what else to call it for now) distortion I hopefully captured, as once heard it cannot be un-heard. It’s simply not there in other sources, or in the vinyl before the last 5 minutes of a side.

This is my second copy of this pressing, both sound the same with regard to the distortion, my first copy was actually flatter and better centred. Go figure. For now I’m resigned to the fact that my brand new vinyl simply sucks, and the only way I can fix that is by throwing money at rare pressings, which isn’t a great solution at this stage.
 
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rbphoto said:
I agree that it’s a bad pressing. I’m not that concerned about pitch fluctuations, I’m concerned about the ‘clipping’ (don’t know what else to call it for now) distortion I hopefully captured, as once heard it cannot be un-heard. It’s simply not there in other sources, or in the vinyl before the last 5 minutes of a side.

This is my second copy of this pressing, both sound the same with regard to the distortion, my first copy was actually flatter and better centred. Go figure. For now I’m resigned to the fact that my brand new vinyl simply sucks, and the only way I can fix that is by throwing money at rare pressings.
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It is not unusual for me to exchange some new records 2 or 3 times to get a "good one". Sometimes I give up on vinyl for particular albums and just go for the CD or FLAC download. Old pressings are not a panacea. Half my collection is made up of those and plenty of old vinyl from the 50s to 90s is subject to pressing defects also if you are unlucky. Generally speaking, IME, Japanese pressings from the 80s had the best QC/QA and the lowest noise floor.

New records can sound great when the stars align. I've got audiophile records from Impex, Analog Productions, MOFI, etc from the last 10 or so years - but even those can have pressing defects sometimes. Anyone that says they don't have defects is not very picky or is full of it.

If you've tried two copies of this album and both were crap, might be time to forget about vinyl for this album. I've got it on CD and I'm glad I didn't pay a premium for this "special" LP reissue with defects.
 
rbphoto said:
Yeah, chalk this up to a learning experience - with regard to turntable setup, and buying vinyl in 2022. Naïve and inexperienced on both counts!
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FWIW right now is about the worst time to be getting into or getting back into vinyl. Prices are high on everything and QC of new pressings has dropped like a rock. I still enjoy the hobby but if someone was asking about whether to jump in or not, I would probably tell them to forget it or hold off.
 
patient_ot said:
FWIW right now is about the worst time to be getting into or getting back into vinyl. Prices are high on everything and QC of new pressings has dropped like a rock. I still enjoy the hobby but if someone was asking about whether to jump in or not, I would probably tell them to forget it or hold off.
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I have been helping folks of lesser means, like me, to get into vinyl with older equipment. We usually get our records at used record stores. With an old technics or pioneer of humble origins these folks are usually quite smitten. Of course they are coming from low quality mp3s on a Bluetooth speaker. Trust me they are having fun. It takes all kinds.
 
Bicyclist said:
I have been helping folks of lesser means, like me, to get into vinyl with older equipment. We usually get our records at used record stores. With an old technics or pioneer of humble origins these folks are usually quite smitten. Of course they are coming from low quality mp3s on a Bluetooth speaker. Trust me they are having fun. It takes all kinds.
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Unfortunately used record prices are a lot higher than they used to be and things I would tolerate from a record costing $1-3 many years ago I might not tolerate from a much more expensive new record or used record that costs $20 or more. The days of cheap records are pretty much over in most major metros IME, unless you are buying records nobody wants, e.g. Mantovani, Barbara Streisand, Andy Williams, etc. I don't want any of that stuff.

I still find the occasional deal but things have dried up a lot compared to even 5-10 years ago IME, not to mention decades ago when cheap used vinyl was very plentiful.
 
patient_ot said:
Unfortunately used record prices are a lot higher than they used to be and things I would tolerate from a record costing $1-3 many years ago I might not tolerate from a much more expensive new record or used record that costs $20 or more. The days of cheap records are pretty much over in most major metros IME, unless you are buying records nobody wants, e.g. Mantovani, Barbara Streisand, Andy Williams, etc. I don't want any of that stuff.

I still find the occasional deal but things have dried up a lot compared to even 5-10 years ago IME, not to mention decades ago when cheap used vinyl was very plentiful.
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I am in a better market I think. The tables aren't cheap but I often have old hifi given to me that folks don't want to deal with. It usually needs significant work but old belt drive and DD tables that were cheap to begin with are usually easy to get running again and grossly outperform the $100.00 new decks. The receivers are usually bpc but if they have a phono pre I send em along with a turntable and a set of reasonable speakers. Even the radio shack minimus 7s will be eye opening to most folks. It's not high end or even midfi but for a person who has only experienced mp3s it's addictive. Btw I buy good pressings at my local used shop for 10.00 or less all the time. Plus it's a two mile bicycle ride one way. Makes for a beautiful afternoon.
 
Bicyclist said:
I am in a better market I think. The tables aren't cheap but I often have old hifi given to me that folks don't want to deal with. It usually needs significant work but old belt drive and DD tables that were cheap to begin with are usually easy to get running again and grossly outperform the $100.00 new decks. The receivers are usually bpc but if they have a phono pre I send em along with a turntable and a set of reasonable speakers. Even the radio shack minimus 7s will be eye opening to most folks. It's not high end or even midfi but for a person who has only experienced mp3s it's addictive. Btw I buy good pressings at my local used shop for 10.00 or less all the time. Plus it's a two mile bicycle ride one way. Makes for a beautiful afternoon.
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I am in a major metro of 5 million people.There are at least half a dozen record stores within a 15 minute to 40 minute drive from me that sell new and used vinyl. If I'm willing to drive further, there are even more.

I've lived in several cities and states and the prices in general are a lot higher now than they were just 5-7 years ago. Everyone I know personally says the same thing. You can look at Discogs prices and see how things have gone up. Many stores use Discogs as a price guide, so even if it's full of shill and sock puppet transactions, that's the "new" price the stores will put the records out for.

Not just records but gear as well has gone up, both new and used.

If you live in a small town in a semi-rural area things might be a lot different. A lot depends on musical tastes as well. My tastes are fairly specific at this point and a shop full of used Doobie Brothers and Christopher Cross albums probably isn't going to have much I'd actually buy.

I can still find deals like I said, but they are far less plentiful than they used to be. Many of the used records in the bins are in worse condition than they used to be also. Just a general trend I've noticed.
 
patient_ot said:
I am in a major metro of 5 million people.There are at least half a dozen record stores within a 15 minute to 40 minute drive from me that sell new and used vinyl. If I'm willing to drive further, there are even more.

I've lived in several cities and states and the prices in general are a lot higher now than they were just 5-7 years ago. Everyone I know personally says the same thing. You can look at Discogs prices and see how things have gone up. Many stores use Discogs as a price guide, so even if it's full of shill and sock puppet transactions, that's the "new" price the stores will put the records out for.

Not just records but gear as well has gone up, both new and used.

If you live in a small town in a semi-rural area things might be a lot different. A lot depends on musical tastes as well. My tastes are fairly specific at this point and a shop full of used Doobie Brothers and Christopher Cross albums probably isn't going to have much I'd actually buy.

I can still find deals like I said, but they are far less plentiful than they used to be. Many of the used records in the bins are in worse condition than they used to be also. Just a general trend I've noticed.
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I like bebop and 20th century classical. We have two used shops in town with pretty expansive collections. I live in central Illinois. My town is only 100,000+ but there are several nearby similar sized communities. I understand the market has risen but it's still a fun time to be alive and I don't have a time machine anyway
 
rbphoto said:
I agree that it’s a bad pressing. I’m not that concerned about pitch fluctuations, I’m concerned about the ‘clipping’ (don’t know what else to call it for now) distortion I hopefully captured, as once heard it cannot be un-heard. It’s simply not there in other sources, or in the vinyl before the last 5 minutes of a side.

This is my second copy of this pressing, both sound the same with regard to the distortion, my first copy was actually flatter and better centred. Go figure. For now I’m resigned to the fact that my brand new vinyl simply sucks, and the only way I can fix that is by throwing money at rare pressings, which isn’t a great solution at this stage.
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If both LPs have this distortion, it may be in the master. Can you get this similar distortion with any other albums from another artist?

I find the better your equipment becomes, the easier it is to hear poor masterings and pressings. :(
 
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