Cartridge and tonearm advice - diagnosing IGD issues

[tnsilver]

it kind of makes sense to use some precision equipment.

Not if you could potentially crack the headshell in the vice and knock the cantilever off with a dial indicator springy tip. C'mon, nobody does this. You're probably overthinking this. It's easy. Have a drink, relax - come back to this refreshed and keep the stylus guard down while at it (just in case).

 

[spark1]

Messaging does seem a bit mixed.

Offset off at one point by a micron is disastrous. If you are not going to make it perfect, then expect the results you are getting.

Lighten up. Just eyeball the overhang and square it up. You're making it too complicated.

If OP is already using the overhang recommended by the tonearm maker (or very close to it), something more fundamental is wrong. I would have put my money on a damaged stylus, except OP has already eliminated that as a potential cause.

OP, have you put the Denon cart on a different table...as a way of narrowing the issue down to problems with the the tonearm (such as bearing problem)?

 

[rbphoto]

If OP is already using the overhang recommended by the tonearm maker (or very close to it), something more fundamental is wrong. I would have put my money on a damaged stylus, except OP has already eliminated that as a potential cause.

OP, have you put the Denon cart on a different table...as a way of narrowing the issue down to problems with the the tonearm (such as bearing problem)?

I wouldn’t say I’ve eliminated the stylus being a problem. I actually bought one of those usb microscopes to check it because I can use it for other stuff, but it’ll be weeks away. I can maybe rig up another inspection method. It does look very stubby and sort of rounded to the naked eye.

i swapped in a Grace F-9 to the same deck, on a Micro Seiki headshell. But of course the geometry there may well have been significantly out. I didn’t want to completely remove the Denon from the headshell. If I am still having issues, I’ll install the Grace and set that up correctly in a day or two.

 

[spark1]

I wouldn’t say I’ve eliminated the stylus being a problem. I actually bought one of those usb microscopes to check it because I can use it for other stuff, but it’ll be weeks away. I can maybe rig up another inspection method. It does look very stubby and sort of rounded to the naked eye.

i swapped in a Grace F-9 to the same deck, on a Micro Seiki headshell. But of course the geometry there may well have been significantly out. I didn’t want to completely remove the Denon from the headshell. If I am still having issues, I’ll install the Grace and set that up correctly in a day or two.

I think you said the F9 had the same issues, right? If you want to try it again, you can make sure geometry was not the problem by measuring the distance from stylus to headshell collar once you have the Denon set-up using the Stax headshell dot.

Now apply this measurement to the Grace in the MicroSeiki headshell. Voila...same overhang.

But what I really wanted to know is how the Denon sounds on a different table (one known to have no operating problems), with same albums. And then the Grace on that table, same albums.

We still don't know if it's the Denon or the tonearm/table, do we?

 

[rbphoto]

Now apply this measurement to the Grace in the MicroSeiki headshell. Voila...same overhang.

I’ll do this as soon as I get a chance, to give some more background to the ‘rumble’ I’m talking about, I made a video to try and show it as suggested earlier.

The clips are transitions between tracks of an album that sounds actually really good, but is pressed mildly off centre. You’ll see the woofer cone oscillate with every revolution of the disc, as I suppose the arm movement has to deal with an inconsistent inward tracking groove.

The phone mic doesn’t really pick up the low frequency component but you can see the cone movement. This is with 15hz subsonic filter on, it’s quite extreme with it off. the last couple of transitions are a different album and you’ll hear a higher frequency noise momentarily like paper sheets rubbing together.

Maybe this give you folks some more clues. Thanks for staying with me thus far!

 

[tnsilver]

That's not really the video I was hoping for. Looking at a woofer for diagnosing a suspected TT geometry issue is like giving a dentist a urine sample to diagnose a root canal infection. It's not totally useless - but it's a cumbersome approach. I was hoping to see the live interaction of the tonearm and cart on the groove, and compare it to good and bad output samples for at least a few good seconds each. I was hoping to catch a glimpse of the turntable, see if the platter wobbles and whether or not the tonearm is factory installed at the correct mounting distance, as opposed to some owner doing a sloppy job. Now I just need to explicitly ask all that...

I was trying to listen to the music background - but the transitions are simply too fast, so other than excessive background noise, and at some point a repeating interference, that may suggest eccentricity or may not, I could not extract too much out of it. I thought I did recognize 'Little Lou, Ugly Jack, Prophet John' with Nora Jones out of 'Belle And Sebastian – Write About Love' and I got to tell you that the 2014 reissue (OLE-944-9) appears in the context of excessive surface and background noise in at least one Discogs review. If that's what you own (the 2014 reissue) - then we've successfully established the perfect bad example of a pressing. ...and there's the obvious sub-sonics which cause the woofer pumping.

There's lots of discussions about woofer pumping but there's only three root causes.

• The first is a tonearm/cart mismatch. Incompatibility of the tonearm effective mass with the cart's compliance can cause the resonant cascade effect and induce parasitic sub-sonic frequencies to the output signal. It gets amplified, goes to the speakers which attempt to reproduce it (at a high energetic cost), but pump as they might - we can't hear none of it. I'm pretty certain we've already established that's not the case here, as nothing about the Stax UA-7 implies it's incompatible with the Denon DL-110. Are you sure your VTF is correct? Can you borrow or purchase a reasonably priced digital scale and at least put this conundrum out of the way?
  
• The next cause is improper isolation of the turntable. This is a wide subject! It includes a turntable failing to isolate intrinsic resonances (motor noise for example), as well as a failure to isolate extrinsic resonances (environmental, footfall, etc...) from the output signal. The most common isolation failure of a turntable is feedback. Feedback is caused by the turntable positioned too close to the speakers, which at some given SPL (depending on the volume level) begins to amplify the sound waves from the speakers, as well as from the groove, and induce sub-sonic frequencies. Proximity to the speakers also challenges the turntable isolation as resonances travel through solids (floors, furniture), as well as through the air.
• The last cause has nothing to do with the turntable. It is the odd, wobbly, eccentric LP. While wobbling records induce a low (typically 3Hz or other subsonic multiple of 3) interference to the output, overly eccentric (they're probably all eccentric to some insignificant degree) records do the exact same thing. There's nothing you can do about that - other than avoid buying presses of dubious origins or questionable quality. Good pressings can become overly eccentric for reasons beyond us - such as being left to cook in a van on a hot summer day, somewhere along the distribution chain. Extremely improper storage of stacking records for long periods in hot weather can cause it too.

With all that said, we're nowhere closer to solving this rather intriguing mystery, but staring at pumping woofers shooting short bursts out of a known eccentric record of questionable quality - ain't gonna get us closer.

 

[patient_ot]

I’ll do this as soon as I get a chance, to give some more background to the ‘rumble’ I’m talking about, I made a video to try and show it as suggested earlier.

The clips are transitions between tracks of an album that sounds actually really good, but is pressed mildly off centre. You’ll see the woofer cone oscillate with every revolution of the disc, as I suppose the arm movement has to deal with an inconsistent inward tracking groove.

The phone mic doesn’t really pick up the low frequency component but you can see the cone movement. This is with 15hz subsonic filter on, it’s quite extreme with it off. the last couple of transitions are a different album and you’ll hear a higher frequency noise momentarily like paper sheets rubbing together.

Maybe this give you folks some more clues. Thanks for staying with me thus far!

That is subsonic rumble, not IGD. Might want to change the thread title as these are two separate and distinct problems.

While buying better quality LPs helps avoid problems in theory, even the very best pressing plants today are not immune to problems and it does not take much to set off subsonic rumble. A tiny, barely visible pressing defect like a little bubble in the vinyl or something that appears not to affect audible playback can easily produce subsonic rumble. And yes this can happen on "audiophile" records from MOFI, AP, etc. in addition to cheaper more run of the mill records.

 

[tnsilver]

That is subsonic rumble, not IGD. Might want to change the thread title as these are two separate and distinct problems.

That's a very good point! It brought me back into perspective as the IGD reference in the title got stuck in my sub-conscience from the get go, hence the association with a geometry related issue. I've actually re-read this thread and there's no mention by the OP of anything implying unusual output in the inner groove, certainly not inner groove distortion. Sub-sonics is definitely what we see in the video and background noise is the only thing that's evident. Maybe this video is useful after-all... Could inexperience, once again, result in the use of a very specific but wrong acronym to describe the wrong problem, thus throwing off everyone for so long?

 

[doctor fuse]

In case it was missed, I will repeat a point: several of my LPs have rumble cut into the grooves.

 

[spark1]

That's a very good point! It brought me back into perspective as the IGD reference in the title got stuck in my sub-conscience from the get go, hence the association with a geometry related issue. I've actually re-read this thread and there's no mention by the OP of anything implying unusual output in the inner groove, certainly not inner groove distortion. Sub-sonics is definitely what we see in the video and background noise is the only thing that's evident. Maybe this video is useful after-all... Could inexperience, once again, result in the use of a very specific but wrong acronym to describe the wrong problem, thus throwing off everyone for so long?

See posts 2 and 3.

 

[JohnT123]

Is it just me or does that sub-sonic rumble happen at regular intervals? Once per rotation perhaps?

If the system has a sub-sonic filter I'd turn it on and see if it clears the rumble.

 

[rbphoto]

Is it just me or does that sub-sonic rumble happen at regular intervals? Once per rotation perhaps?

If the system has a sub-sonic filter I'd turn it on and see if it clears the rumble.

It’s not just you, it’s definitely in sync with one revolution of the platter, my theory is that is at this point where the tonearm movement is struggling to track the slightly off-centre groove, as this record (yes, the 2014 reissue of Write About Love) is pressed slightly off centre.

the rumble filter is well and truly on in that video, without it I’d have done some damage by now!

 

[rbphoto]

In case it was missed, I will repeat a point: several of my LPs have rumble cut into the grooves.

It probably goes without saying that as a vinyl novice I didn’t fully appreciate how much of a mixed bag quality is in 2022. I thought I could just buy any release of a title I wanted and be a relatively happy camper. Oh how wrong I was. I have been trawling discogs comments and watching everything I can on vinyl mastering, lacquer cutting and record pressing plants, and the picture is far from rosy for non-audiophile releases. And the reality for me is that this is what I am and will be buying, I’m interested in the titles, not their provenance, but the medium seems to be forcing me that way.

I used to chuckle to myself when I overheard vinyl people make comments to each other like ‘oh but is that the Japanese pressing?’ And think wow, I hope I’m never that guy. Turns out I might be becoming that guy.

Anyway that’s a bit of a tangent but it’s a bit of background to my collection.

 

[Bicyclist]

Vinyl has always been spotty quality wise. It's one reason I don't chase perfection in vinyl playback. I do appreciate those who do however. If you want real misery buying new vinyl, revisit the early 80s. Every new lp I bought was warped it seemed. Especially classical. I had to return many LPs to the record wharehouse.

 

[spark1]

It’s not just you, it’s definitely in sync with one revolution of the platter, my theory is that is at this point where the tonearm movement is struggling to track the slightly off-centre groove, as this record (yes, the 2014 reissue of Write About Love) is pressed slightly off centre.

the rumble filter is well and truly on in that video, without it I’d have done some damage by now!

Or the platter rubbing on something once each pass.

 

[rbphoto]

it's a cumbersome approach. I was hoping to see the live interaction of the tonearm and cart on the groove, and compare it to good and bad output samples for at least a few good seconds each. I was hoping to catch a glimpse of the turntable, see if the platter wobbles and whether or not the tonearm is factory installed at the correct mounting distance, as opposed to some owner doing a sloppy job. Now I just need to explicitly ask all that...

Ok, I can do all that, thanks for being explicit.

Coming back to IGD and whether or not my complaints refer to it, there are two records that set all this off and led me to describe my issues as IGD.

The first one is Arlo Parks - Collapsed in Sunbeams, on deep red vinyl, released last year, pressed by GZ media. What I hear on this record is a tearing sound with every revolution of the disc. Most obvious in the dead space, but clearly audible underneath the tracks, and clearly obvious towards the inner grooves. I can’t demonstrate this unfortunately as I’ve returned it and haven’t been able to pick up a replacement. But I suspect, with what I know now, most of the issues are due to an off centre pressing and other questionable mastering artifacts.

The seconds is DJ shadow’s Endtroducing, the 25th anniversary half speed master cut at Abbey Road and pressed by MPO.

There is a delicate piano sample that comes in just before Transmission II, where there is what sounds like clipping distortion, a crackle when the waveforms peak. It’s actually all through this record, towards the last few tracks per side. I’ve listened to Miles the engineer at Abbey Road on YouTube discussing half speed mastering, and everything about it should in theory minimise artifacts like this, which are simply not there in digital sources of this material. Of course it could be a pressing defect introduced at any stage of the process, but if it was cut into the lacquer it’s a travesty.

Anyway - to someone inexperienced with vinyl, and all the background influence in the audiophile world about how good it can sound (new emphasis on ‘can’), I start thinking to myself that I’m doing something wrong and haven’t set up the deck properly, or chosen mismatched equipment. Because if someone is going to get it wrong in this chain of professionals from creator to consumer, it should be me, right? The one who doesn’t do this for a living?

I guess what I’m saying is, until a couple of days ago, I didn’t even *know* other people were already screwing this up for me as I was perfectly capable of screwing it up myself.

 

[tnsilver]

Neah, it's not you, nor your gear, which is quite up to the task (to say the least). That's the hobby. Getting the max out of vinyl was never easy - not even way back then. In this iteration when we have the benefits of digital audio, lossless formats and hi-res streaming to compare to, it's gotten even harder and waaaaay more expensive than it ever was. Unfortunately, With the proliferation of the hobby in the last 16 years, the demand for the media and the dichotomy with the anachronistic technology required to produce it, had caused a shortage in supply. This is incentive enough for the appearance of ever deteriorating quality pressing of titles mastered by inexperienced personnel, originating in some backward places in the world with such low standards of quality, that you wouldn't want to buy batteries from. There's many turds out there. You just need to watch out not to step in one. You can't avoid it any longer with new reissues and releases, now that 2nd hand used records, are mostly left overs that no one wants. Discogs reviews are one great way to avoid the bad ones. You just need to be selective with what you buy.

 

[rbphoto]

This is incentive enough for the appearance of ever deteriorating quality pressing of titles mastered by inexperienced personnel, originating in some backward places in the world with such low standards of quality, that you wouldn't want to buy batteries from. There's many turds out there.

I’m hearing you, and I’m starting to understand how widespread the problem is, I’m just incredulous and saddened that this is the reality. Actually it doesn’t seem to me like country of origin is at issue, as some of the most reviled pressings are from plants like Rainbo and URP in the USA. What I saw of the quality control processes in Michael Fremer’s tour of GZ Media were actually pretty advanced by comparison (some kid listening to a one in 20 records in a poorly isolated side room of the pressing plant). It just seems like labels get what they pay for, and margins are being squeezed as no other area of revenue is as profitable, especially while touring is off the agenda. As usual, money talks. And the 15 year olds with their Crosleys seem fine with it, so no reason for things to change.

Coming back to the setup, riddle me this - with my tonearm, there is definite mechanical play or slop in the pivot. When I go to adjust the counterweight, I notice the whole arm rotates in the direction of force, by a small but noticeable amount. With the unipivot construction of the arm, my assumption is this is by design as it is a sort of cup and cone arrangement that is not under tension.

Another observation is that when I balance the tonearm, it really does float in the horizontal and vertical plane beautifully, it’s like it’s on an air cushion. But when I dial in 1.9 grams of VTF and compare the movement, it’s quite rigid and self-braked, particularly in horizontal plane. This is with anti-skate disengaged completely. Is that to be expected?

cheers!

 

[spark1]

I’m hearing you, and I’m starting to understand how widespread the problem is, I’m just incredulous and saddened that this is the reality. Actually it doesn’t seem to me like country of origin is at issue, as some of the most reviled pressings are from plants like Rainbo and URP in the USA. What I saw of the quality control processes in Michael Fremer’s tour of GZ Media were actually pretty advanced by comparison (some kid listening to a one in 20 records in a poorly isolated side room of the pressing plant). It just seems like labels get what they pay for, and margins are being squeezed as no other area of revenue is as profitable, especially while touring is off the agenda. As usual, money talks. And the 15 year olds with their Crosleys seem fine with it, so no reason for things to change.

Coming back to the setup, riddle me this - with my tonearm, there is definite mechanical play or slop in the pivot. When I go to adjust the counterweight, I notice the whole arm rotates in the direction of force, by a small but noticeable amount. With the unipivot construction of the arm, my assumption is this is by design as it is a sort of cup and cone arrangement that is not under tension.

Another observation is that when I balance the tonearm, it really does float in the horizontal and vertical plane beautifully, it’s like it’s on an air cushion. But when I dial in 1.9 grams of VTF and compare the movement, it’s quite rigid and self-braked, particularly in horizontal plane. This is with anti-skate disengaged completely. Is that to be expected?

cheers!

Horizontal tension/resistance should not occur with antiskate at zero.

 

[spark1]

The only systematic way to get at this is to put the Denon on a different table, same albums, and to put the same albums on a known to be perfectly working table, so you can weed out recording/pressing issues from reproduction issues.

Minimally, put the Grace on the Stax. This is something you can do without finding a friend with an alternate table.

I can't understand why you haven't done this yet, as it is an obvious step in isolating your issues. Ditto for getting a cheap digital scale.