cassette tapes vs. Cd

[ssmith3046]

Yeah a well functioning Nak will surprise those who've never heard one, even with pre-recorded tapes...in good condition. After being totally out of tape for a couple decades I picked up an RX-505 and had Perry do his magic. The sound quality is surprisingly good.

I'm with you. I play a lot of pre-recorded cassettes on my Dragon. I own several Pink Floyd and Beatles MFSL cassettes and they are something else.

 

[robgmn]

Ummm, if cassette is as good as CD, why do they use all that fancy equipment in recording studios?
Why not just use a good cassette deck to make masters?

What would be cool to see done is a TRUE comparison of formats.
Prep a CD to sound just like a cassette or LP (dynamic range, channel separation, freq range, crosstalk, IMD, the whole gamut) then do a solid comparison of the two.

Then, prep an LP and cassette to sound like a CD and compare.
It would definitely be interesting!

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Cassette will never be a mastering medium in any professional setting. Cassette is not even really acceptable for broadcasting use.

 

[gagelle]

I'll just write about my recent experience with cassette decks. We found a few decks at thrift stores and were surprised by their sound quality. They were low end, 2 head decks and our initial recordings had more warmth than our CDs. But over the course of a few months, we discovered several things that would make the hobby a money pit. It is difficult and expensive to find high quality blank cassettes. Some of the better blank cassettes were made in the 80s. I didn't know this at the time, but even when unused, the tape degrades just sitting in the package. I have no background in engineering. I've read that the high quality metal tapes are coated with metal particles that eventually degrade. I've paid too much for tapes that couldn't make a good recording.

As for prerecorded tapes, it's luck. I have found some excellent tapes but the majority did not sound good or were physically falling apart. They were an option when a local goodwill was selling them at 2 for a dollar. They just suddenly went up in price and are not worth the risk of getting a bad one.

It's true that some high end Nakamichi decks approached reel to reel decks in sound quality. But these decks are complex affairs that need periodic adjustments. Anything you find will need a complete restoration by this time. There are few technicians who have the tools, parts and knowledge to restore and calibrate high end cassette decks. The total price will exceed the cost of owning a good reel to reel. So what is the point?

The point was to be able to record your records and play them in the car. Setting up an old cassette deck in the car sounds like too much trouble to me. People with skills in cassette deck restoration are on a different playing field. But for myself, getting seriously into cassettes would become an unending expense.

 

[Lapis]

Cassette will never be a mastering medium in any professional setting. Cassette is not even really acceptable for broadcasting use.

The speed and tracks are just small enough, face it. They won't even accept R2R at speeds lower than 7.5ips and narrower tracks.

 

[BrocLuno]

Let's see - I have some 300 odd cassettes and about a 1/2 dozen decks. OBTW - I have R2R too. I used to work for GRT/Chess/Janus Records back in the day and spent years between studio time and the production floors. Even back then we could build a tape that would set you back in your recliner. Ain't rocket science, but it takes some good gear.

Look for dual capstan decks - preferably with logic controlled direct drive as that will help maintain tape tension correctly. I don't care if the deck has two heads or three as long as they are in good shape.

I have a couple a Dennon decks that are really nice sounding. I sold both my Naks, even after complete professional service by Fred Longworth who still has factory Nakamichi test tapes. They are good, but there are others that will compete. A is little known Aiwa that will pretty much eat anything out there for lunch, but they are RARE.

I usually run Dennon and Sony dual capstan direct drive decks. I also have a BIC T-3 (the poor mans Nakamichi, back in the day). All the Yammies, Pioneers, TEACs and others are down the road.

You can get good new tapes from Batteries and Butter here: http://www.batteriesandbutter.com/AKAIGX-60.html These are quite nice

Tape is important. Uneven base stock and poorly trimmed/slit tape will drive you crazy chasing machine problems that are not there

Sometimes you can pick up unopened cassettes at thrifts for cheap. I got a 1/2 dozen metal tapes last year for $0.50 each

 

[ssmith3046]

Interesting thread. I'll jump in here since I have some cassettes I recorded back in the early 80's on a Nakamichi BX-1 deck, through a B&O 1700 (MMC2 cart) and Yamaha A800 integrated amp. I now have a rebuilt Dragon and LX-3. I can play these tapes and am amazed at how good they sound. But I can say that these old tapes I recorded, as well as 50 cent tapes I have from Goodwill (Steve Winwood/Sting) sound better than most of my cd's. CD's may not have hiss, or low level noise associated with tape, but I guarantee you the analog difference is significant. I don't look at specs. I listen to my ears.

It's a special pleasure to see my younger friends—who have never heard vinyl or tape—amazed at what they were missing. In every case, they had no idea what the were missing, by listening to CD's and MP3 files.

I also agree with comments that it's just plain fun. It's more involving and in an age of immediate gratification and no time for anything except for "what's next" . . . it's a rewarding way to slow things down and savor the musical experience.

gagelle, I can appreciate your comment on the cost. There is a cost. But like with all things in this hobby, to each his own. Part of what makes this hobby so enjoyable is that there are a variety of ways you can enjoy it, at different price points, and levels of financial maintenance to keep going. So it really comes down to getting a good used deck with the understanding that it will need servicing. That's part of what makes Nakamichi decks so great. With proper servicing right off the bat, you can be assured that your interest in playing tape will be outlived by your deck . . . unless you let it sit and don't use it. For me, that means powering my decks on almost every time I turn the stereo on, which is almost every day. And I'll play tape in them some of the time, even if I'm not listening to it, simply to keep the pinch roller surface from staying in one spot for too long. Also to keep the lubed parts moving. For some guys, that's just not something they want to do, and that's okay.

As for tape, as mentioned by others, if you buy the right tape, you shouldn't have problems. That means sticking with Maxell and TDK for the most part. Most of my tape is TDK SA from the early/mid 90's and it's all good tape.

The same argument could apply to turntables and vinyl. Buying vinyl used and new is hit/miss, and requires regular care, and initial cleaning (usually). There are supplies to buy and if you're like me, new antistatic sleeves to protect my investment. After time, your stylus or cart needs to be replaced. So you see, it comes down to how involved and invested you are willing to be. I'm probably OCD by some people's perspective. But I don't care since I enjoy it. But when you add it all up, there is a reason people enjoy digital formats and gear . . .

Willy Herman did a rebuild on the Dragon I own and the only scheduled maintenance he recommended was to play a tape at least once a month. I have no problem doing that.

 

[Ricktptman]

Pre-recorded cassettes were pretty marginal. Anything made on CrO2/Type II or Metal/ Type IV tape on a high quality 3 head deck (Pioneer Elite/1250 or any number of Naks) will give CD a very serious run for its money. There might be marginally less Dynamic range on the very bottom, but as pointed out before there's a warmth and coherence on things like massed instruments (voices and strings) that particularly stand out. I've got a CT-93/Dragon/DR-1/2-CT-F1250's and a CT-F1000 and they all have their particular strengths.....you can saturate the tape more (and record hotter) on good open reel, but media (recorded or blank) are expensive.

 

[iloveamps]

.....you can saturate the tape more (and record hotter) on good open reel, but media (recorded or blank) are expensive.

No kidding! After seeing those new Akai type II cassettes posted earlier, I'm thinking about getting a nice deck again. Less than two bucks for a nice tape? The only two brands of new open reel tape are well over 50 bucks for a full reel, and over 30 bucks for a small reel. Cassettes are so easy and convenient to use. Good for background music to save the heads on my open reels. I can always listen to those if I want to do serious listening.

 

[jaetee]

I'll just write about my recent experience with cassette decks. We found a few decks at thrift stores and were surprised by their sound quality. They were low end, 2 head decks and our initial recordings had more warmth than our CDs. But over the course of a few months, we discovered several things that would make the hobby a money pit. It is difficult and expensive to find high quality blank cassettes. Some of the better blank cassettes were made in the 80s. I didn't know this at the time, but even when unused, the tape degrades just sitting in the package. I have no background in engineering. I've read that the high quality metal tapes are coated with metal particles that eventually degrade. I've paid too much for tapes that couldn't make a good recording.

As for prerecorded tapes, it's luck. I have found some excellent tapes but the majority did not sound good or were physically falling apart. They were an option when a local goodwill was selling them at 2 for a dollar. They just suddenly went up in price and are not worth the risk of getting a bad one.

It's true that some high end Nakamichi decks approached reel to reel decks in sound quality. But these decks are complex affairs that need periodic adjustments. Anything you find will need a complete restoration by this time. There are few technicians who have the tools, parts and knowledge to restore and calibrate high end cassette decks. The total price will exceed the cost of owning a good reel to reel. So what is the point?

The point was to be able to record your records and play them in the car. Setting up an old cassette deck in the car sounds like too much trouble to me. People with skills in cassette deck restoration are on a different playing field. But for myself, getting seriously into cassettes would become an unending expense.

To the comments I bolded above, about tape degradation... this is an unnecessary fear. Just make sure you store your tapes in a dry environment with relatively consistent temperature.

I have tapes in my possession that I recorded on Pioneer and Nak decks dating as far back as 1982 that still sound absolutely spectacular on the decks I have now, 31 years later. In fact, I'm listening to a Rick James song on a mix tape I made back in 1985 right now. This tape was in a long forgotten box in a non-air conditioned Florida garage for almost a full decade until I move to a larger house recently!

Also, I have had extremely good luck buying used tapes in thrifts or yard sales for as little as 10 cents and recording over them. Look for pretty much any Maxell, TDK, Denon, Fuji or Sony tape...

I think 90 minute cassette compilations are the best "playlists" around. :thmbsp:

 

[perryinva]

Like all media, some is good, some OK, some bad, some great. All of them. I have no problem saying that I find the best CD's the most enjoyable to listen too. But they are so far and few between, where as I find most LPs, as long as they are clean copies, are generally the best. And on a top Nak or Revox cassette deck, I can't tell which is source and which is tape when I use the best tape, deck and recording technics. I've found many more pre-recorded tapes that are more enjoyable to listen to, then most CDs, and I especially enjoy doing an LP, CD, tape comarison when I have all 3 formats pre-recorded, which is quite rare, I've found, but those tapes form the mid 80's when they DID have all 3 formats are often amazing quality. But the bottom line for me is that I just don't have everything I want to listen to on any one type, or would want to spend the cash on to try and get it, vs stumbling upon it for $0.50 on a cassette. I've had far better luck finding titles to try for far less dollar in far better shape on cassettes than any other format. I don't have a huge collection by some standards on this site. Maybe 800 LPs, 800 pre-recorded tapes, 200 recorded tapes, and 200 CDs. But it reflects about the real world, reasonable cost availablility of the music I enjoy.

I recently picked up the new Sound City Real to Reel double album LP set, with the download, for $24. I just had the itch to try a new album, new music, supposedly (and is) well recorded. The album is very high quality vinyl, flat & noise free. I like about 1/2 the music, so I'll select some songs for an LP mix tape, and make a total copy like I used to when I borrowed friends records to tape. I'll likely sell the albums afterwards, because it just seems (today) crazy to spend that much on an album I know I will not listen to a whole lot, in LP format, if I burn a CD and have it on a high quality tape.

 

[tubeboob]

Don't let individual biases deter you from experiencing cassettes.

I recently purchased a Harman Kardon CD491 cassette deck, and I am most pleased with it. I was shocked at the fidelity of cassettes, they're amazing.

I have tapes that sound better than their CD counterparts, and I'm talking pre-recorded.

A great 3 head deck will surprise you, and they're not usually expensive. My deck has a frequency range that surpasses CDs, 20 to 24,000 hz.

Be not afraid Grasshopper . . .

Cheers

 

[HTHMAN]

I used to get some pretty darn good results on my DBX equipped deck when using TDK-SA tapes. Not indistinguishable from the CD, but mighty close and more than good enough to play in my car;s tape deck at the time.

Find yourself a deck with DBX and some good tapes and you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[BlazeES]

Sometimes you can pick up unopened cassettes at thrifts for cheap. I got a 1/2 dozen metal tapes last year for $0.50 each

I need to travel to Napa more often .. Vallejo or where ever it is you're shopping .. :scratch2:

 

[seacliffe301]

And VHS Hi-Fi has companders you can't defeat to mask the head switching. And it's tracking is mediocre at best. If you are going to use a VCR, get a Beta with a PCM adapter.

Even Beta Hi-Fi sounded better than VHS Hi-Fi, which I typically found to be distorted.

 

[jlb2]

Hi all,

Don't let individual biases deter you from experiencing cassettes.

I certainly agree on that. But there are a couple of things to clarify:

I have tapes that sound better than their CD counterparts, and I'm talking pre-recorded.

It's well known that many CD's are mastered by deaf monkeys, usually for the sake of sounding louder than the neighbour, so it's not uncommon for the LP version to sound better than the CD. It's much more surprising for cassette, esp. prerecorded tape, but then it probably depends on how you expect it to sound. For instance CD re-issues of hits of the '50s can easily sound too clean to be true - and quite often they are, owing to the liberal use of Cedar. In that case, yes the defects of cassette can restore in part the sonic character that was lost in the poor restoration.

My deck has a frequency range that surpasses CDs, 20 to 24,000 hz.

That's only true owing to a wider tolerance on the measure, and only at low level. At 0dB VU the frequency range of any cassette is much narrower than that. Don't be fooled by a couple of figures.

 

[jlb2]

I cannot disagree that there is a very audible deficiency with VHS at the 6hr speed but at the 2hr speed it cleans up nicely.

It's not just the speed actually. Mistracking and interchange problems are widespread problems, especially as the decks age and go out of alignment - which happens fairly quickly on Hifi VHS. The issue has been discussed in another thread here on AK.