Confusion on speaker stands versus floor standing

[Akustic]

That energy can also be turned to heat and released through different materials.

Quoting John Atkinson

"The sealed cabinet is constructed from "extremely stiff, ultra-high-density multi-fiber panels laminated to an acoustically absorptive, visco-elastic substrate." After reading that, you can probably understand that the very first thing I did was to subject the cabinet to the knuckle-rap test. Well, the cabinet is "dead". All I got for my pains were sore knuckles"

Converted to heat ?? I vaguely remember such claims over the years.. but I think that I was left shaking my head.

If there were any substantial amount of energy there it would melt whatever it was contact with .. and the material would have to deteriorate with the heating cycles. ..
Little energy little heat ok maybe..
I would want to ask Mr. Atkinson why 3m didn't buy the patent ..
Friction is usually what converts mechanical energy into heat ..

If someone could figure out a way to make acoustic vibrations do useful work or create heat it would be worth a mint ..

 

[Sgt Shultz]

Converted to heat ?? I vaguely remember such claims over the years.. but I think that I was left shaking my head.

If there were any substantial amount of energy there it would melt whatever it was contact with .. and the material would have to deteriorate with the heating cycles. ..
Little energy little heat ok maybe..
I would want to ask Mr. Atkinson why 3m didn't buy the patent ..
Friction is usually what converts mechanical energy into heat ..

If someone could figure out a way to make acoustic vibrations do useful work or create heat it would be worth a mint ..

"Sorbothane® Performance Curves
Sorbothane turns mechanical energy into heat. As the material is deformed, molecular friction generates heat. This “lost energy” is called hysteresis. Energy is translated perpendicularly away from the axis of incidence, and its effect is pushed nearly 90° out of phase from the original disturbance. This phase shift, known as “Tan Delta,” is a measure of Sorbothane’s damping effectiveness. The higher the value of Tan Delta, the greater the amount of damping that occurs"

Pretty much everything does this to some extent but Sorbothane is especially good at it.

 

[rothwellaudio]

An earth ground is the only "absorber" of energy .. vibrational, electrical, mechanical .. just different forms or expressions of the energy.
Vibration circuit principles are similar to electrical circuit principles ..
Energy seeks an earth ground .

Yes, vibration circuits are analogous to electrical circuits. In an electrical circuit current passing through a resistor creates heat.
Energy does not seek an earth ground and electrical circuits don't need an earth connection. Portable battery-powered circuits don't have a ground connection and they work perfectly well.

The whole idea of isolating speaker vibrations needs to be shot in the foot ..
Can't be done ...

Yes, it can.

Same with any "absorbent" material .. It isn't "absorbing" the vibration, it's just changing it's frequency ..

No, it isn't. It's generating heat.

That energy can also be turned to heat and released through different materials.

Yes, absolutely true.

Converted to heat ?? I vaguely remember such claims over the years.. but I think that I was left shaking my head.
If someone could figure out a way to make acoustic vibrations do useful work or create heat it would be worth a mint ..

Yes, heat is generated.

"Sorbothane® Performance Curves
Sorbothane turns mechanical energy into heat. As the material is deformed, molecular friction generates heat. This “lost energy” is called hysteresis. Energy is translated perpendicularly away from the axis of incidence, and its effect is pushed nearly 90° out of phase from the original disturbance. This phase shift, known as “Tan Delta,” is a measure of Sorbothane’s damping effectiveness. The higher the value of Tan Delta, the greater the amount of damping that occurs"

Pretty much everything does this to some extent but Sorbothane is especially good at it.

Yes, that's correct.
An easier way to image it is with a vibrating object on top of a sandbag. The vibration is transferred to the sand and the grains of sand rub against each other and the friction produces heat.
Of course, there's not enough heat to feel a temperature rise, and the temperature rise is so small that the surrounds are able to absorb the heat easily. That's why sorbothane doesn't melt - there's just not enough heat to do that.

 

[therling]

Funny how you never see things like speaker spikes at the Audio Engineering Society conference exhibitions. I wonder why that could be.

In all the recording studios I've ever worked in or visited, the far field monitors are rigidly attached to the wall so they don't fall down and the near field monitors just plopped on the top of the console meter bridge. I've never seen any speaker spikes, nor any of Ted Denney's magic little dots on the walls for that matter. .

 

[Akustic]

"Sorbothane® Performance Curves
Sorbothane turns mechanical energy into heat. As the material is deformed, molecular friction generates heat. This “lost energy” is called hysteresis. Energy is translated perpendicularly away from the axis of incidence, and its effect is pushed nearly 90° out of phase from the original disturbance. This phase shift, known as “Tan Delta,” is a measure of Sorbothane’s damping effectiveness. The higher the value of Tan Delta, the greater the amount of damping that occurs"

Pretty much everything does this to some extent but Sorbothane is especially good at it.

Thanks ..
Somehow I knew this was coming back around to Sorbothane ... a little heat OK ..
A lotta heat can't happen .. and Sorbothane is unique.

 

[Akustic]

Yes, vibration circuits are analogous to electrical circuits. In an electrical circuit current passing through a resistor creates heat.
Energy does not seek an earth ground and electrical circuits don't need an earth connection. Portable battery-powered circuits don't have a ground connection and they work perfectly well.

Yes, it can.

No, it isn't. It's generating heat.

Yes, absolutely true.

Yes, heat is generated.

Yes, that's correct.
An easier way to image it is with a vibrating object on top of a sandbag. The vibration is transferred to the sand and the grains of sand rub against each other and the friction produces heat.
Of course, there's not enough heat to feel a temperature rise, and the temperature rise is so small that the surrounds are able to absorb the heat easily. That's why sorbothane doesn't melt - there's just not enough heat to do that.

Are you telling me that if I set the guitar on a pillow, I won't be ale to hear it, but the pillow will get warm ??

 

[GChief]

Funny how you never see things like speaker spikes at the Audio Engineering Society conference exhibitions. I wonder why that could be.

Many brands come with them. Do they take them off?

 

[rothwellaudio]

Are you telling me that if I set the guitar on a pillow, I won't be ale to hear it, but the pillow will get warm ??

Yeah, that's right - the guitar will be totally silent and the pillow will set on fire.

 

[GordonW]

The whole idea of isolating speaker vibrations needs to be shot in the foot ..
Can't be done ...

Isolated where ?? ... Stored where where ?? Is it just sitting there waiting ?? What's it stored in ??
Meanwhile we're pumping in more energy for every minute that the music is on .. where's that going ??
The earth, and maybe ultimately black holes are the only storage facilities for energy ..

If we flipped this whole thing back into electrical terms .. since the electrical energy was converted into mechanical energy by the speaker in the first place.. we would be endlessly charging some object with no path to ground ... what object ?? what happens when it's full ?? How ??
Somewhere there's a path to ground, or the current won't flow . ditto with the vibrating mechanical energy ..

Like an electrical charge the mechanical energy charge will find a path to ground ..

Respects ...

What can, and IS done, is changing the acoustical impedance, to where the vibration of the cabinet wall transmits a lot less energy to the environment as SOUND, and more is dissipated by other means (friction, heat, etc).

That's what isolating the cabinet (suspending it by the corners) does. The energy never magically "goes away"- it just doesn't have nearly as much of an opportunity, to drive as big of a diaphragm, as it would, if the cabinet was flat on the floor.

That's a physical fact, which no degree of discussion will make go away.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[GordonW]

Converted to heat ?? I vaguely remember such claims over the years.. but I think that I was left shaking my head.

If there were any substantial amount of energy there it would melt whatever it was contact with .. and the material would have to deteriorate with the heating cycles. ..
Little energy little heat ok maybe..
I would want to ask Mr. Atkinson why 3m didn't buy the patent ..
Friction is usually what converts mechanical energy into heat ..

If someone could figure out a way to make acoustic vibrations do useful work or create heat it would be worth a mint ..

Around 99 percent- actually probably more on average- of all energy put into a speaker, is already dissipated as heat.

Speaker drivers, on average, are ATROCIOUSLY inefficient devices at turning electricity into sound. A speaker that's 92dB sensitivity at one watt, is exactly ONE PERCENT efficient at converting electrical power into acoustic energy. The rest is converted to heat, in the voice coil and magnet assembly.

A speaker that's 100% efficient, would produce 112dB in all directions (spherical dispersion), at one watt, at one meter distance. Conversely, it takes 112db at one meter distance, to achieve one watt of acoustic power from a source. 92dB @ 1 meter, in turn, would be 10 milliwatts of acoustic power.

By those facts- it's quite obvious that the amount of energy dissipated by a panel as heat, is MINUSCULE. As in milliwatts. But, it WAS audible potential energy, that's no longer audible.

As for audible vibrations doing useful work- ever heard of ultrasonic welding of plastic? That's EXACTLY what's going on there. Vibrations (MUCH- as in orders of magnitude- more powerful than a speaker) heat up a plastic seam, to the point where the plastic edges melt and fuse together. Used in the assembly of LOTS of consumer products. That wall wart that you just plugged into some electronic device? Very likely was ultrasonic welded together, just as one example. This can be done, because the frequencies in use are orders of magnitude higher than audible sound- it's MUCH simpler to make an acoustic device that's close to 99% efficient, of a size that can be used in an industrial process, with wavelengths of that short of a size.

But, in a common speaker- the baffle and diaphragm sizes are SO much smaller than the wavelengths involved- that the acoustic impedance mis-match with the air, means that most of the energy never becomes acoustic pressure- instead, it's wasted as heat, before it even gets out of the speaker cone.

So, rest assured, the cabinet walls are not in any danger of catching on fire. Unless the voice coil of the driver itself blows up and catches on fire, first. And that I have seen personally, both during and after the event.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

Around 99 percent- actually probably more on average- of all energy put into a speaker, is already dissipated as heat, on average.

Speaker drivers, on average, are ATROCIOUSLY inefficient devices at turning electricity into sound. A speaker that's 92dB sensitivity at one watt, is exactly ONE PERCENT efficient at converting electrical power into acoustic energy. The rest is converted to heat, in the voice coil and magnet assembly.

A speaker that's 100% efficient, would produce 112dB in all directions (spherical dispersion), at one watt, at one meter distance. Conversely, it takes 112db at one meter distance, to achieve one watt of acoustic power from a source.

By those facts- it's quite obvious that the amount of energy dissipated by a panel as heat, is MINUSCULE. As in milliwatts. But, it WAS audible potential energy, that's no longer audible.

As for audible vibrations doing useful work- ever heard of ultrasonic welding of plastic? That's EXACTLY what's going on there. Vibrations (MUCH- as in orders of magnitude- more powerful than a speaker) heat up a plastic seam, to the point where the plastic edge melt and fuse together. Used in the assembly of LOTS of consumer products. That wall wart that you just plugged into some electronic device? Very likely was ultrasonic welded together, just as one example. This can be done, because the frequencies in use are orders of magnitude higher than audible sound- it's MUCH simpler to make an acoustic device that's close to 99% efficient, of a size that can be used in an industrial process, with wavelengths of that short of a size.

But, in a common speaker- the baffle and diaphragm sizes are SO much smaller than the wavelengths involved- that the impedance mis-match with the air, means that most of the energy never becomes acoustic pressure- instead, it's wasted as heat, before it even gets out of the speaker cone.

So, rest assured, the cabinet walls are not in any danger of catching on fire. Unless the voice coil of the driver itself blows up and catches on fire, first...

Regards,
Gordon.

The voice coil sets the cone on fire first, been there done that. It was rather exciting as I was driving at night when one driver in the dash caught fire, on the passenger side of course.

 

[GordonW]

The voice coil sets the cone on fire first, been there done that. It was rather exciting as I was driving at night when one driver in the dash caught fire, on the passenger side of course.

You should see what I have to recone sometimes. No cone left- just ashes. Voice coil rendered into a scrambled mess of charred wire, jammed up in the magnet gap. Real fun to clean THAT out, when it's time to recone, let me tell you...

I have also seen cabinets, that were set on fire by burning driver cones. Stuffing melted and burned, Front baffles charred, sometimes holes where the fire burnt away entire sections of the baffle...

So, yes, there's heat. In the voice coil. Not much anywhere else, in normal operation.

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Vintagear]

Converted to heat ?? I vaguely remember such claims over the years.. but I think that I was left shaking my head.

If there were any substantial amount of energy there it would melt whatever it was contact with .. and the material would have to deteriorate with the heating cycles. ..
Little energy little heat ok maybe..
I would want to ask Mr. Atkinson why 3m didn't buy the patent ..
Friction is usually what converts mechanical energy into heat ..

If someone could figure out a way to make acoustic vibrations do useful work or create heat it would be worth a mint ..

3M didn't have to buy the patent because they already have materials that do the same thing. There's a very high probability that, if the marketing was true, whatever was inside that Infinity speaker cabinet was made by 3M or a similar materials engineering company.

.. and Sorbothane is unique.

Sorbothane is not unique. Vibration conversion to heat is a real thing and damping materials are made for different applications.

www.vibrationdata.com/tutorials_alt/vib_iso.pdf

 

[Akustic]

Around 99 percent- actually probably more on average- of all energy put into a speaker, is already dissipated as heat.

Speaker drivers, on average, are ATROCIOUSLY inefficient devices at turning electricity into sound. A speaker that's 92dB sensitivity at one watt, is exactly ONE PERCENT efficient at converting electrical power into acoustic energy. The rest is converted to heat, in the voice coil and magnet assembly.

A speaker that's 100% efficient, would produce 112dB in all directions (spherical dispersion), at one watt, at one meter distance. Conversely, it takes 112db at one meter distance, to achieve one watt of acoustic power from a source. 92dB @ 1 meter, in turn, would be 10 milliwatts of acoustic power.

By those facts- it's quite obvious that the amount of energy dissipated by a panel as heat, is MINUSCULE. As in milliwatts. But, it WAS audible potential energy, that's no longer audible.

As for audible vibrations doing useful work- ever heard of ultrasonic welding of plastic? That's EXACTLY what's going on there. Vibrations (MUCH- as in orders of magnitude- more powerful than a speaker) heat up a plastic seam, to the point where the plastic edges melt and fuse together. Used in the assembly of LOTS of consumer products. That wall wart that you just plugged into some electronic device? Very likely was ultrasonic welded together, just as one example. This can be done, because the frequencies in use are orders of magnitude higher than audible sound- it's MUCH simpler to make an acoustic device that's close to 99% efficient, of a size that can be used in an industrial process, with wavelengths of that short of a size.

But, in a common speaker- the baffle and diaphragm sizes are SO much smaller than the wavelengths involved- that the acoustic impedance mis-match with the air, means that most of the energy never becomes acoustic pressure- instead, it's wasted as heat, before it even gets out of the speaker cone.

So, rest assured, the cabinet walls are not in any danger of catching on fire. Unless the voice coil of the driver itself blows up and catches on fire, first. And that I have seen personally, both during and after the event.

Regards,
Gordon.

Respects ..

I was referring to audible frequencies .. not ultrasonic .. and driver friction certainly creates heat ..
What I'm pointing at is vibration conductance and conduction .. soft materials typically don't conduct vibration .. they're non-conductors of audible vibration.
They're not absorbing vibration anymore than rubber is absorbing electricity ..

They're not absorbing the vibration .. they simply don't conduct it in the first place .. so they're great decouplers.
Obviously some level of energy can turn them into a conductor .. siesmometers record infrasonic vibration in sand and some level of voltage will make it through rubber ..

To the extent that a panel can be manufactured to reduce vibration in the first place it only makes sense to use it ..
But most speakers are constructed of materials that do conduct vibration ..
The panels are vibrating .. with the movements of the drivers and acoustic coupling.
That vibration can be channeled through a conductive path but it can't be channeled or absorbed through a non-conductor ..

 

[Akustic]

3M didn't have to buy the patent because they already have materials that do the same thing. There's a very high probability that, if the marketing was true, whatever was inside that Infinity speaker cabinet was made by 3M or a similar materials engineering company.



Sorbothane is not unique. Vibration conversion to heat is a real thing and damping materials are made for different applications.

www.vibrationdata.com/tutorials_alt/vib_iso.pdf

Thanks ..
Maybe I should have said .. was unique .. but that was a good while back ..
And once someone finds a way, someone else is bound to follow ..

But I'm sticking with little heat, maybe .. ok
If someone ever figures a way to make work or heat out of the audible noises around us it's gonna create some headlines..

 

[rothwellaudio]

.. soft materials typically don't conduct vibration .. they're non-conductors of audible vibration.
They're not absorbing vibration anymore than rubber is absorbing electricity ..

So, they're not conducting vibration and they're not absorbing it.

And absorbing vibration doesn't produce heat because vibration absorption is a myth.
And spikes convert vibration of one frequency into a different frequency before dumping it into the black hole of planet earth.

Ok, got it now.

 

[Akustic]

So, they're not conducting vibration and they're not absorbing it.

And absorbing vibration doesn't produce heat because vibration absorption is a myth.
And spikes convert vibration of one frequency into a different frequency before dumping it into the black hole of planet earth.

Ok, got it now.

Read the thread and answer the questions that I posed ..

Before you do answer this ...

I'm at the intersection waiting .. the vehicle in the left turn lane of the cross street has a monster subwoofer booming ,,
His car is rattling .. my car is rattling and my steering wheel is vibrating in time to his music .. he's literally rattling all of the cars at the intersection ..

Answer this ..
If he sets his woofer box on a pillow will all of the rattling and vibrations stop ??

 

[lini]

(...) They're not absorbing the vibration .. they simply don't conduct it in the first place .. so they're great decouplers. (...)

Seems like you've haven't yet experienced the damping effect of for example a rubber mat on a turtable platter or a self-adhesive bitumen sheet at the bottom of kitchen basin. Maybe you should try that and see, how it fits to your theory.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Akustic]

I know it sounds crazy, But I always get caught up with the question of where is it all going in the end ..
It dissipates ..

Vibration conduction is coupling dependent, and inverse to frequency and distance ..
Dissipation and absorption are pretty similar but subtly different.

I know my speakers sound better on spikes ..
And when the guy with the subwoofer drives away my steering wheel stops vibrating and I can't hear him anymore..

 

[Akustic]

Seems like you've haven't yet experienced the damping effect of for example a rubber mat on a turtable platter or a self-adhesive bitumen sheet at the bottom of kitchen basin. Maybe you should try that and see, how it fits to your theory.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Thanks ..
I put my turntable on a piece of wood that was placed on sand ..
Decoupling/damping is definitely useful .. and who likes noisy sinks resonating in the box below ..