DACs: Cheap vs Expensive

[Bill Murray]

Tone and timbre, being two sides of same coin, can be measured just fine. Impact.. What do you mean by this?
What's musically important is, IMO, the ability to play back the digitally stored track without colouration. Reaching certain thresholds, there are no longer any audible cues to distinguish two DACs that meet this criteria. I've tested many DACs blind and any that measured flat and had inaudible distortion and noise were not different sounding.
And we have yet to see any proper conducted blind tests that say otherwise.
When a DAC does not meet the thresholds and does not have flat frequency response then all bets are off.

Looking at the specs. from the JVC CD player in question leads me to assume that it is perfectly capable of transparently reproduce the same sound as other quality DACs.

P.S. I'm not doubting two different guitars sound different. It would show in a frequency response measurement.
View attachment 3273652

I appreciate your replies. If I do buy a DAC it will be a cheapie, primarily because I have no way of listening to the difference, if any, other than buying and testing. And if the test fails, then what? Also, (and this may shine a spotlight on my ignorance of the digital age) is it possible to input my IPOD music thru my present docking station, which has a cable output, to the cable input of the DAC? I am thinking Schitt modi 3. What do you think ??

 

[Gigantic]

 

[spark1]

I appreciate your replies. If I do buy a DAC it will be a cheapie, primarily because I have no way of listening to the difference, if any, other than buying and testing. And if the test fails, then what? Also, (and this may shine a spotlight on my ignorance of the digital age) is it possible to input my IPOD music thru my present docking station, which has a cable output, to the cable input of the DAC? I am thinking Schitt modi 3. What do you think ??

Apple dock? Analog output only, via the iPod's internal DAC. So you can't connect it to an external DAC.

I assume the music on your iPod is also on your computer? If so, you could access it with a streamer (using ethernet or wifi) and connect the streamer's analog output to your stereo system. Or, pass digital output from streamer to an external DAC and then connect that to your stereo system. Cuts the iPod out of the equation while still providing full access to the same music that's stored on it.

Plus access to the vast music libraries of the streaming services, internet radio, etc.

Regarding "if the test fails"; that's easy...return it.

 

[Retro_Pete]

I appreciate your replies. If I do buy a DAC it will be a cheapie, primarily because I have no way of listening to the difference, if any, other than buying and testing. And if the test fails, then what? Also, (and this may shine a spotlight on my ignorance of the digital age) is it possible to input my IPOD music thru my present docking station, which has a cable output, to the cable input of the DAC? I am thinking Schitt modi 3. What do you think ??

Which docking station is it? Do you have a link?

A Schiit Modi 3 is a good DAC. It accepts SPDIF and optical in. It does not have analog input. So if your docking station only has analog outputs you need another component than the Modi 3.
If you want a great DAC and the option to connect an analog device you'll need something like the Wiim Pro Plus but then you'd probably not need the iPod anymore as I'd recommend you use the great streaming options through the Wiim instead. I'm not sure if this fits your budget though.

 

[Akustic]

I appreciate your replies. If I do buy a DAC it will be a cheapie, primarily because I have no way of listening to the difference, if any, other than buying and testing. And if the test fails, then what? Also, (and this may shine a spotlight on my ignorance of the digital age) is it possible to input my IPOD music thru my present docking station, which has a cable output, to the cable input of the DAC? I am thinking Schitt modi 3. What do you think ??

The MODI is a popular DAC ..
The Wiim is a more versatile device but maybe a bit limited ( compared to the best) as a standalone DAC ..

It's also pretty straightforward to use a simple and inexpensive ($25) Bluetooth receiver's digital output into the MODI or any other DAC's digital input and then connect to a phone, or a computer via Bluetooth to access the streaming websites ..
You could still run your CD player in to the MODI or the Wiim either way ...
Handy thing with using your phone to access is that you can get to your favorite music in the car or anywhere else ... kinda like the IPOD ..

What other gear are you listening to ?? (Speakers, amp ) ..

 

[Retro_Pete]

The MODI is a popular DAC ..
The Wiim is a more versatile device but maybe a bit limited ( compared to the best) as a standalone DAC ..

It's also pretty straightforward to use a simple and inexpensive ($25) Bluetooth receiver's digital output into the MODI or any other DAC's digital input and then connect to a phone, or a computer via Bluetooth to access the streaming websites ..
You could still run your CD player in to the MODI or the Wiim either way ...
Handy thing with using your phone to access is that you can get to your favorite music in the car or anywhere else ... kinda like the IPOD ..

What other gear are you listening to ?? (Speakers, amp ) ..

I think it's a stretch to call the Wiim Pro Plus limited when it is in fact one of the best performing DAC implementations there is regardless of what else it can do.
It is as neutral as can be, has 0.0002 % THD+N and DR of 114-117 dB depending on toslink in or streaming -I can't imagine it limiting any system.

Source

 

[Bill Murray]

The MODI is a popular DAC ..
The Wiim is a more versatile device but maybe a bit limited ( compared to the best) as a standalone DAC ..

It's also pretty straightforward to use a simple and inexpensive ($25) Bluetooth receiver's digital output into the MODI or any other DAC's digital input and then connect to a phone, or a computer via Bluetooth to access the streaming websites ..
You could still run your CD player in to the MODI or the Wiim either way ...
Handy thing with using your phone to access is that you can get to your favorite music in the car or anywhere else ... kinda like the IPOD ..

What other gear are you listening to ?? (Speakers, amp ) ..

I am a dinosaur from the 60s. DIgital I don't know. But when Napster came out I started d/l music, the files of which I later put on ITUNES. My computer and my stereo are in different rooms, cannot be directly connected. So I got an IPOD and a docking station, and I d/l the music from ITUNES to IPOD which I played thru my stereo. Unfortunatly the people at APPLE do not think like me and seem to want to manipulate their customers into doing everything their way. So I am always having difficulties with keeping my IPOD functioning. I don't know enough about streamers etc to know if there is an alternate way of doing things. BUT there are 2 musts......1. The music must be my music, in my possession and control, not on some GD cloud. 2. ITUNES must remain my music library, I just don't want all the work involved in setting up something new. As for my stereo gear, I have a Sherwood SEL-400 amp, their TOTL from the 70s, a Sherwood S7100 receiver as tuner and secondary amp, and a Sherwood equalizer, turntable and IPOD docking station, a Pioneer RTR deck, reverb amp and expander, a JVC cassette deck and CD changer, Bogen and Shure mikes and mixers, and Jensen, Altec, and University speakers. This stuff dates from 1965 to the early 80s except of course for the IPOD and its docking station. BTW this docking station has RCA and "cable" outputs and I thought the cable output might be useable on the Schitt Modi 3s input. I am really new to this aspect of it. My daddy was MONO and my mama was a vacuum tube !!

 

[Akustic]

I am a dinosaur from the 60s. DIgital I don't know. But when Napster came out I started d/l music, the files of which I later put on ITUNES. My computer and my stereo are in different rooms, cannot be directly connected. So I got an IPOD and a docking station, and I d/l the music from ITUNES to IPOD which I played thru my stereo. Unfortunatly the people at APPLE do not think like me and seem to want to manipulate their customers into doing everything their way. So I am always having difficulties with keeping my IPOD functioning. I don't know enough about streamers etc to know if there is an alternate way of doing things. BUT there are 2 musts......1. The music must be my music, in my possession and control, not on some GD cloud. 2. ITUNES must remain my music library, I just don't want all the work involved in setting up something new. As for my stereo gear, I have a Sherwood SEL-400 amp, their TOTL from the 70s, a Sherwood S7100 receiver as tuner and secondary amp, and a Sherwood equalizer, turntable and IPOD docking station, a Pioneer RTR deck, reverb amp and expander, a JVC cassette deck and CD changer, Bogen and Shure mikes and mixers, and Jensen, Altec, and University speakers. This stuff dates from 1965 to the early 80s except of course for the IPOD and its docking station. BTW this docking station has RCA and "cable" outputs and I thought the cable output might be useable on the Schitt Modi 3s input. I am really new to this aspect of it. My daddy was MONO and my mama was a vacuum tube !!

You join a bunch of us dinosaur's who've been down a similar path ...

An Ipod is just a small computer and so is a cell phone ..
Itunes is accessible through a computer .. (well it used to be) ..
I quit using the IPOD because I didn't like Apple's proprietary control of everything and their prices are mostly absurd..

ITUNES is just one of the many streaming services that serve as a source for music .. It is the cloud, you are just downloading and storing music locally..(on your device)

Try the Wiim first .. It's a good DAC, and it has built in simple computer programing that makes it possible to access services that aren't Apple only.
The music download services are mostly pretty easy to use once you start messing with them. You figured out Napster.
Internet radio (one kind of streaming) is way, way better than over the air radio .. It learns your tastes and plays music that you will probably like .. Try Pandora.
The WiiM Pro is a far, far more versatile device than a regular DAC .. It's worth every penny, and more, of it's price over the Modi .. It can be found for $150..

Down the road it's pretty straightforward to connect a computer in one room to a stereo in another room wirelessly .. esp. with the WiiM ..
Are you using an Apple phone ??

 

[mcgjohn]

I am a dinosaur from the 60s. DIgital I don't know. But when Napster came out I started d/l music, the files of which I later put on ITUNES. My computer and my stereo are in different rooms, cannot be directly connected. So I got an IPOD and a docking station, and I d/l the music from ITUNES to IPOD which I played thru my stereo. Unfortunatly the people at APPLE do not think like me and seem to want to manipulate their customers into doing everything their way. So I am always having difficulties with keeping my IPOD functioning. I don't know enough about streamers etc to know if there is an alternate way of doing things. BUT there are 2 musts......1. The music must be my music, in my possession and control, not on some GD cloud. 2. ITUNES must remain my music library, I just don't want all the work involved in setting up something new. As for my stereo gear, I have a Sherwood SEL-400 amp, their TOTL from the 70s, a Sherwood S7100 receiver as tuner and secondary amp, and a Sherwood equalizer, turntable and IPOD docking station, a Pioneer RTR deck, reverb amp and expander, a JVC cassette deck and CD changer, Bogen and Shure mikes and mixers, and Jensen, Altec, and University speakers. This stuff dates from 1965 to the early 80s except of course for the IPOD and its docking station. BTW this docking station has RCA and "cable" outputs and I thought the cable output might be useable on the Schitt Modi 3s input. I am really new to this aspect of it. My daddy was MONO and my mama was a vacuum tube !!

don't let the technology intimidate you. Much of this stuff is plug and play today. A lot of it is just learning the lingo, acronyms and connection types. And there is nothing wrong with a vacuum tube or mono.....Both are great. Some of the greatest jazz was only recording mono with vacuum tubes in the signal chain.
As @Akustic points out, there are a lot of folks here that will help you if you get stuck.

 

[spark1]

As I said a few posts earlier, you can use a streamer to retrieve your iTunes music from your computer and send it to your stereo system. Effectively, this would replace your iPod.

To access the music stored on your computer (in iTunes), your computer and the streamer must be connected to the same local data network. If your computer has a high-speed connection to the Internet, you almost certainly have a local data network, whether you know it or not.

A streamer can connect to that network and access music stored on the other devices which are also connected to that network. Such as your computer.

I cannot imagine why you are so averse to taking advantage of the vast variety of music available via the Internet (the "GD cloud"). Do you understand that a streamer can access both the Internet AND the iTunes music stored on your computer? So if you don't want to use the cloud, you don't have to do so. Either way, the music stored on your PC stays on your PC.

On a related note; you are using the cloud to participate on this forum. And you used it to get your music from Napster.

As for connecting your dock to a DAC; I'll ask again - what kind of dock is it? Brand? Model? If it is an Apple dock, the answer is a hard no. There were a few docks made by other companies with the ability to extract digital output from an iPod, but they were not common.

What type of files do you have loaded into iTunes? If they are compressed (AAC), then an external DAC is not likely to be an improvement over the DAC built into your iPod anyway. And if you got that music from Napster, they are surely compressed.

If you decide to use a streamer, it can connect to your local network wirelessly (Wi-Fi) or physically (Ethernet), and connect to your stereo system via RCA jacks, same as your tape deck, CD player, etc. The Wiim Pro and Wiim Pro Plus are two excellent, and relatively inexpensive, choices for a streamer.

You would also need a device to use as a "remote control" for the streamer. Most people use their smartphone or a tablet. You could also use your PC, but that's not very practical in your situation since it is in another room. In any case, whatever you use to control the streamer must be able to access the same network to which the streamer is connected (for example, your home's wifi network).

 

[Gigantic]

As I said a few posts earlier, you can use a streamer to retrieve your iTunes music from your computer and send it to your stereo system. Effectively, this would replace your iPod.

To access the music stored on your computer (in iTunes), your computer and the streamer must be connected to the same local data network. If your computer has a high-speed connection to the Internet, you almost certainly have a local data network, whether you know it or not.

A streamer can connect to that network and access music stored on the other devices which are also connected to that network. Such as your computer.

I cannot imagine why you are so averse to taking advantage of the vast variety of music available via the Internet (the "GD cloud"). Do you understand that a streamer can access both the Internet AND the iTunes music stored on your computer? So if you don't want to use the cloud, you don't have to do so. Either way, the music stored on your PC stays on your PC.

On a related note; you are using the cloud to participate on this forum. And you used it to get your music from Napster.

As for connecting your dock to a DAC; I'll ask again - what kind of dock is it? Brand? Model? If it is an Apple dock, the answer is a hard no. There were a few docks made by other companies with the ability to extract digital output from an iPod, but they were not common.

What type of files do you have loaded into iTunes? If they are compressed (AAC), then an external DAC is not likely to be an improvement over the DAC built into your iPod anyway. And if you got that music from Napster, they are surely compressed.

If you decide to use a streamer, it can connect to your local network wirelessly (Wi-Fi) or physically (Ethernet), and connect to your stereo system via RCA jacks, same as your tape deck, CD player, etc. The Wiim Pro and Wiim Pro Plus are two excellent, and relatively inexpensive, choices for a streamer.

You would also need a device to use as a "remote control" for the streamer. Most people use their smartphone or a tablet. You could also use your PC, but that's not very practical in your situation since it is in another room. In any case, whatever you use to control the streamer must be able to access the same network to which the streamer is connected (for example, your home's wifi network).

It’s also worth noting that iTunes, now known as Apple Music, will effectively turn your computer into a streamer, too. You can connect to a Dac via usb and control the software from a phone, iPad or even Apple Watch n

 

[Bill Murray]

You join a bunch of us dinosaur's who've been down a similar path ...

An Ipod is just a small computer and so is a cell phone ..
Itunes is accessible through a computer .. (well it used to be) ..
I quit using the IPOD because I didn't like Apple's proprietary control of everything and their prices are mostly absurd..

ITUNES is just one of the many streaming services that serve as a source for music .. It is the cloud, you are just downloading and storing music locally..(on your device)

Try the Wiim first .. It's a good DAC, and it has built in simple computer programing that makes it possible to access services that aren't Apple only.
The music download services are mostly pretty easy to use once you start messing with them. You figured out Napster.
Internet radio (one kind of streaming) is way, way better than over the air radio .. It learns your tastes and plays music that you will probably like .. Try Pandora.
The WiiM Pro is a far, far more versatile device than a regular DAC .. It's worth every penny, and more, of it's price over the Modi .. It can be found for $150..

Down the road it's pretty straightforward to connect a computer in one room to a stereo in another room wirelessly .. esp. with the WiiM ..
Are you using an Apple phone ??

Being a true dinosaur I do not have a cell phone. Land line. Used to have a rotary dial but they took it away from me. I will NEVER buy another APPLE product. They are really the first generation of Big Brother. What stone age gear do you have for your audio replay??

 

[Bill Murray]

As I said a few posts earlier, you can use a streamer to retrieve your iTunes music from your computer and send it to your stereo system. Effectively, this would replace your iPod.

To access the music stored on your computer (in iTunes), your computer and the streamer must be connected to the same local data network. If your computer has a high-speed connection to the Internet, you almost certainly have a local data network, whether you know it or not.

A streamer can connect to that network and access music stored on the other devices which are also connected to that network. Such as your computer.

I cannot imagine why you are so averse to taking advantage of the vast variety of music available via the Internet (the "GD cloud"). Do you understand that a streamer can access both the Internet AND the iTunes music stored on your computer? So if you don't want to use the cloud, you don't have to do so. Either way, the music stored on your PC stays on your PC.

On a related note; you are using the cloud to participate on this forum. And you used it to get your music from Napster.

As for connecting your dock to a DAC; I'll ask again - what kind of dock is it? Brand? Model? If it is an Apple dock, the answer is a hard no. There were a few docks made by other companies with the ability to extract digital output from an iPod, but they were not common.

What type of files do you have loaded into iTunes? If they are compressed (AAC), then an external DAC is not likely to be an improvement over the DAC built into your iPod anyway. And if you got that music from Napster, they are surely compressed.

If you decide to use a streamer, it can connect to your local network wirelessly (Wi-Fi) or physically (Ethernet), and connect to your stereo system via RCA jacks, same as your tape deck, CD player, etc. The Wiim Pro and Wiim Pro Plus are two excellent, and relatively inexpensive, choices for a streamer.

You would also need a device to use as a "remote control" for the streamer. Most people use their smartphone or a tablet. You could also use your PC, but that's not very practical in your situation since it is in another room. In any case, whatever you use to control the streamer must be able to access the same network to which the streamer is connected (for example, your home's wifi network).

Altho I d/l about 3K songs from Napster before it's untimely death, I went to various libraries later on and borrowed then d/l CDs that had the songs I wanted. Vast project. So most of my music is CD sourced, not from the internet. However I do have access to an excellent file share program when I need it. My docking station is a Sherwood DS-1. The input to it is a special adapter Apple made to connect to it. Output is 2 RCA jacks and 1 "cable" for, I guess, an alternate jack type. By the "cloud" I was referring to any storage out of my control, where the streamer or source provider controlled it. ie, could delete any and all of it whenever they wanted. (like APPLE would do if I didn't dance to their tune). The music files I have now are in a separate, personal, file of mine. 320bps MPEG file. Then these files were copied over to ITUNES, where they had to be organized according to Apples idea. Then d/l to the Ipod, and finally ready for my stereo. Meanwhile, I got so aggravated with my Ipod's habit of making me jump thru hoops that I used Itunes to burn 96 CDs containing all my music, and I usually play back using my CD changer, which works very well. This has a TOSLINK ouput which I would like to connect to a DAC. I use the RCA outputs now. Hence my questions about DACs. Would they really improve the sound?

 

[Bill Murray]

It’s also worth noting that iTunes, now known as Apple Music, will effectively turn your computer into a streamer, too. You can connect to a Dac via usb and control the software from a phone, iPad or even Apple Watch n

No more APPLE anything for me. They treated me with contempt when I went to their "genius" store. Told me I had to "evolve". Would not even test my Ipod or its docking station adapter to see if that was part of my problem. (It ultimately was).

 

[Gigantic]

No more APPLE anything for me. They treated me with contempt when I went to their "genius" store. Told me I had to "evolve". Would not even test my Ipod or its docking station adapter to see if that was part of my problem. (It ultimately was).

You’re mad that they no longer support a 20 year old device? Okay.

 

[GChief]

Told me I had to "evolve".

They were not lying to you.

 

[Bill Murray]

You’re mad that they no longer support a 20 year old device? Okay.

2016. I had this meeting in 2022. Therefore, the Ipod device was 6 years old. And it was obsolete. And they wouldn't service it, or even give me any advice about what the problem was. And I had to evolve if I wanted them to do anything for me. BTW, the problem was a defective adapter between the Ipod and the docking station. An Apple product. Which they wouldn't even test. They had evolved beyond it.

 

[spark1]

Altho I d/l about 3K songs from Napster before it's untimely death, I went to various libraries later on and borrowed then d/l CDs that had the songs I wanted. Vast project. So most of my music is CD sourced, not from the internet. However I do have access to an excellent file share program when I need it. My docking station is a Sherwood DS-1. The input to it is a special adapter Apple made to connect to it. Output is 2 RCA jacks and 1 "cable" for, I guess, an alternate jack type. By the "cloud" I was referring to any storage out of my control, where the streamer or source provider controlled it. ie, could delete any and all of it whenever they wanted. (like APPLE would do if I didn't dance to their tune). The music files I have now are in a separate, personal, file of mine. 320bps MPEG file. Then these files were copied over to ITUNES, where they had to be organized according to Apples idea. Then d/l to the Ipod, and finally ready for my stereo. Meanwhile, I got so aggravated with my Ipod's habit of making me jump thru hoops that I used Itunes to burn 96 CDs containing all my music, and I usually play back using my CD changer, which works very well. This has a TOSLINK ouput which I would like to connect to a DAC. I use the RCA outputs now. Hence my questions about DACs. Would they really improve the sound?

No digital output from that dock. So, it can't be used with an external DAC.

Will an external DAC improve the sound quality of your CD player? Probably. Buy one and find out. Return it if you don't like it.

A streamer can access all of the music that's on your computer. But if 96 CDs work better for you, great.

BTW, the music you ripped into iTunes is on your computer and can be accessed by any media player. You don't have to use iTunes to use the music.

 

[Bill Murray]

They were not lying to you.

Sure, go ahead cheap shot artist. I was expecting someone that.

 

[Bill Murray]

To all of you who are offering help and advice, I am deeply grateful. It is really the raison d'etre for this site. For those of you who want to cheap shot an old man who admits being out of his depth, go ahead and have your fun. I will just ignore you.